Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Friday, September 21, 2018< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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[04:14:15] <Alacer> zinid: Yup .... totally agree and +1 as well....
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[05:14:50] <Licaon_Kter> Holger:
> Sure but I want to give Licaon_Kter a bit more time to test them ?
Eh, it's easy when the code zinid writes is so good 🙄
Also, I'm not sure my experience on armv6 and a dozen users really can help your multiple Xeon & millions of users 🤔
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[05:47:05] <zinid> > Also, I'm not sure my experience on armv6 and a dozen users really can help your multiple Xeon & millions of users 🤔
I already checked multiple xeons and gazillion users, but Holger has something in between your and mine 😁
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[05:55:22] <Licaon_Kter> Holger: so, I'm on .152, so far, so good 😁
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[07:34:39] <zinid> nice question from one of our customers:
Lets take a more complicated scenario:
Given that a multi-master distributed MySQL cluster is inherently eventually consistent, what happens in the following synthetic situation:
    User A (Canada) sends a message to User B (London)
    User B is offline, message is stored in Canada MySQL
    A delay occurs in the database sync process, causing messages to not be copied from Canada to UK.
    User B comes online
    The delay is resolved, and the message is copied while User B is online
Given that the message is added to the archive while User B is online, I'm assuming that there is no way to ensure User B sees that message until the XMPP client refreshes messages from the archive, which would need to happen essentially constantly to ensure the message is delivered in a timely fashion?
IF that is true, how would you suggest we work within the bounds of network failures like that? I understand this is an edge case, just trying to understand the failure modes of the system.
[07:34:47] <zinid> XMPP is shit
[07:35:10] <zinid> if you think it's not, please provide an efficient solution to this
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[07:46:11] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: isn't this the case for all things network?🤔 CAP'n'shit
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[07:48:55] <zinid> Licaon_Kter, yes, but there are algorithm to resolve this, but you cannot do that solely on servers
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[07:50:04] <Holger> That's were linking a message to the parent message helps.
[07:50:10] <Holger> *where
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[07:53:28] <Holger> Hm then again, doesn't help until A sends another message.
[07:55:53] <flow> So the message is copied to B's MAM archive after B's client already synced the archive?
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[07:57:05] <flow> If it where IMAP then there would be a notification that something changed in the folder, I guess we could to the same for MAM
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[08:06:30] <zinid> flow, there is no need for this, if there was a way to push something to a client we can just push delayed messages (with delay tag set)
[08:07:09] <zinid> now, how to tell XMPP server that there are delayed messages in the database?
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[08:09:06] <flow> zinid, right
[08:10:22] <flow> Hmm, I would expect the database being able to notify that the db sync process has been finished, ideally including the delta so that the xmpp server could send the delayed message
[08:10:29] <flow> but i'm not an expert…
[08:11:04] <zinid> SQL servers are too dumb for this
[08:11:10] <zinid> Redis for example has such mechanism
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[08:11:53] <flow> psql not?
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[08:12:29] <zinid> dunno, maybe newest version, which support consistent replication
[08:12:37] <zinid> they have some "triggers", not sure
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[08:16:09] <Holger> Having the sender block until the SQL cluster is synced is not an option I guess?
[08:16:18] <Holger> Do they use Galera?
[08:16:45] <zinid> Holger, they are more concerned with another type of problems: delay
[08:17:33] <Holger> It should be fast and reliable (sync and async)!
[08:17:54] <zinid> there is a tricky situation: if node A sees a user X offline then it stores a message in local db copy, then replication is performed and user X performs online before the replication is finished
[08:18:21] <zinid> *user X becomes online
[08:18:46] <zinid> nodeA == replication ==> nodeB <- userX
[08:19:30] <Holger> Yeah.
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[09:02:07] <Holger> In theory there's the same race without clustering involved, just that it's highly unlikely to be triggered in practice due to the small time window, no?
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[09:11:14] <zinid> Holger, indeed
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[09:49:25] <MattJ> zinid, just in case you are not aware, there is a flag that the server can set in MAM responses to tell the client that the results may not be complete
[09:49:41] <MattJ> i.e. they may change in a future request due to DB sync issues
[09:50:06] <MattJ> It should only be used if you have a way of identifying that you possibly don't have up-to-date data
[09:50:14] <MattJ> (which I understand may be the problem here)
[09:50:15] <zinid> yeah, but this doesn't solve the problem itself, only tells the client there are problems :)
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[09:54:37] <flow> MattJ, I wonder if we should add a sentence to xep313 explaining that a client may want to requery later after receiving sync results in case the flag is set (if such a sentence is not already there obviously)
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[09:55:51] <MattJ> Hard to know when the client should do that query
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[09:59:06] <Holger> 3 minutes, 42 seconds after receiving the <bind/> result!
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[10:09:24] <flow> MattJ, right, but tbh I always wondered about the flag and it didn't came to me that it is essentially a hint to probably retry the query
[10:10:12] <flow> and then "when" is not that important as long as you do until the flag is reset
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[10:11:54] <flow> I also find "A client SHOULD NOT cache unstable results long-term without later confirming" misleading. The client could cache the results, they are just possibly incomplete, no?
[10:12:21] <flow> Hence 'stable' may not be the best name for the flag, isn't it more like 'possibly-incomplete'
[10:14:12] <flow> Not that I would want the name of the flag to change, but xep313 could be more elaborate about best practices when the flag is encountered
[10:15:13] <MattJ> flow, yeah, I agree with that
[10:15:35] <MattJ> It was added by Kev because they needed it for dealing with similar issues with M-Link's clustering afaik
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[10:18:02] <flow> I was never a great fan of the flag, appeared to be protocol smell which added complexity, but it is appearantly a real world use case
[10:18:25] <MattJ> Same thoughts here
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[10:19:32] <flow> zinid, Holger: I assume ejabberd does atm not set the flag if the db backend is out of sync?
[10:20:13] <zinid> flow, no, actually you cannot 100% be sure database is out of sync
[10:20:30] <zinid> or in sync, FWIW
[10:21:04] <zinid> at least when you rely on eventually consistent replication
[10:21:12] <flow> wtf? shouldn't the database be aware if it is in sync or not?
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[10:21:20] <flow> ahh that eventually consistent thing
[10:21:36] <zinid> flow, no, only when database is CP, not PA
[10:23:40] <zinid> the problem is that most popular approach is PA
[10:23:47] <zinid> at least nowadays
[10:24:01] <zinid> and all those SQL engines were designed for CP
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[12:02:48] <Holger> Tried Dino for the first time in months, feels a bit snappier now I think ...
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[12:05:49] <zuglufttier> Better support for OMEMO is also in the works: https://github.com/dino/dino/pull/413
[12:05:55] <zuglufttier> Which is not a problem for you :D
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[12:09:15] <Holger> Ah OMEMO for private groupchat will make people happy.
[12:10:33] <zuglufttier> Yeah, if that ever gets merged and works, I'll try that out for a while.
[12:10:51] <zuglufttier> My brother thinks that gajim looks outdated.
[12:11:02] <Holger> zuglufttier: Well *bad* OMEMO support is a problem for me :-P  I'm happy with clients having an OMEMO knob as long as it's disabled by default and verification is hidden from casual users.
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[12:12:49] <Holger> Dino's PGP UX is nice.  If you have a running agent, you press "enable GPG", done.
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[12:13:54] <Holger> From what I heard this is a drama in Gajim, but I never tried myself.
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[12:59:36] <tyler> Gajim does look outdated, but the users I've put on it don't care so much about that... Top complaints are related to things like the "user offline / user online" spam, inconsistent URL preview, user unfriendly OMEMO verification.
[12:59:52] <tyler> Is there an age people reach where what it looks like stops mattering?
[13:00:03] <tyler> I've heard same complaint about Mumble.
[13:00:24] <tyler> Are you concerned with what people think when they look over your shoulder or something.
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[13:01:14] <zuglufttier> Well, good design is far more than looks. In the end, a better design will look good and will be easier to use.
[13:01:29] <zuglufttier> Done properly :D
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[13:05:18] <tyler> Yeah, but something looking outdated doesn't have much bearing on it being easier to use. Windows 10 for instance.
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[15:14:48] <zuglufttier> That's because only half of the work was done :D
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[15:18:02] <zinid> any jaba experts? javax.xml.bind does not exist - what should I install in debian?
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[15:20:05] <bowlofeggs> jaba the hut
[15:20:21] <bowlofeggs> (i can't offer any useful comments sorry ☺)
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[17:11:06] <rom1dep> > And maybe you shouldn't use an admin account for day-to-day chat.
(Very) Curious to hear why!
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[17:14:59] <daniel> You are automatically the owner of every muc even the ones you didn't create. Besides being weird to users this can also cause funny side effects with omemo for example
[17:15:46] <rom1dep> aha
[17:16:43] <rom1dep> couldn't "owning on demand" be a thing?
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[17:31:42] <zinid> rom1dep, `editor ejabberd.yml && ejabberdctl reload-config`?
[17:32:35] <rom1dep> zinid: for what?
[17:33:25] <zinid> muc_admin acl
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[17:34:48] <rom1dep> 👍
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[17:47:55] <Holger> rom1dep: Also because of the issue I was responding to 🙂
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[17:49:30] <rom1dep> Holger: yeah, I was mainly curious of the other footguns I have been getting myself unknowingly into over the years!
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[17:50:35] <Holger> You're not auto-added to the owners list so clients using that to list the room members (or to get OMEMO keys or whatever) will miss you.
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[18:57:56] <zinid> But isn't this something good?
[18:59:48] <zinid> I mean you don't want some random person joining your room, even if he is an admin, that's the point of omemo, no?
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[19:00:32] <zinid> Maybe I'm just full of shit, dunno 😁
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[20:09:28] <zinid> Licaon_Kter, so, how do you like the brand new issue report template? :D
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[20:15:47] <zinid> yet another pain in the ass with openssl, this is already third report: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2614
[20:15:52] <zinid> fuck cryptology
[20:16:28] <zinid> and openssl error description is just fantastic
[20:16:57] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[20:17:09] <zinid> "client renegotiations forbidden"
lolwut? go figure...
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[20:46:30] <Licaon_Kter> zinid:
> so, how do you like the brand new issue report template? :D
No one cares, no one reads, no one can add an effing new line after each item so it's not all quoted text.....I guess it's nice 🙄
[20:46:31] dos leaves the room
[20:47:21] <zinid> yeah, my major pain was that stuff with new lines
[20:47:30] <zinid> now I use --------- as delimiter!!!
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[20:53:25] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: any thoughts on https://github.com/iNPUTmice/caas/issues/13#issuecomment-423450113 ?
daniel: you could TRY to create a new user "testaccountXEP0077" ...but if it's created can you delete it?
[20:54:23] debalance leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
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[20:57:51] <daniel> Feels to error prone
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[20:58:51] <zinid> Licaon_Kter, I will check tomorrow
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[22:02:32] 4223 leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:03:37] \(*.*)/ leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:07:11] sindrake leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[22:08:27] marc leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:11:55] spicewiesel leaves the room
[22:12:31] focus121 leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[22:16:05] Holger leaves the room
[22:22:01] focus121 leaves the room
[22:27:02] frainz leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[22:27:42] paul leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:33:32] xinit leaves the room
[22:41:12] zinid leaves the room
[22:41:24] 404 leaves the room: Machine going to sleep
[22:41:26] Odin leaves the room
[22:44:00] tyler leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[22:46:49] paul leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:52:05] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:57:08] paul leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:02:39] pod leaves the room: Machine going to sleep
[23:06:35] sindrake leaves the room
[23:12:07] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:12:45] Dark moon# leaves the room
[23:15:18] frainz leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:17:11] Odin leaves the room
[23:17:53] Antartida leaves the room
[23:26:53] cippaciong leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:29:22] carlos leaves the room
[23:34:58] Odin leaves the room
[23:41:42] yvo leaves the room
[23:43:29] pod leaves the room: Machine going to sleep
[23:52:00] alexis leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:53:28] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:53:43] Odin leaves the room
[23:56:27] lenka leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:59:00] frainz leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
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