Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Thursday, March 28, 2019< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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[06:35:49] <MattJ> Holger/zinid: I assume ejabberd has a queue for XEP-0198, if so I assume it's also bounded. What's the behaviour when the queue is full? (i.e. max. number of unacked stanzas is reached)
[06:37:06] <MattJ> Seems like a tricky problem to solve, though I wonder if erlang you guys a bit here
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[07:58:14] <Holger> MattJ: The client's stream is closed (policy-violation) and the queued stanzas are error-bounced.
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[09:36:32] <MattJ> Got it
[09:36:44] <MattJ> What, then, is the default limit?
[09:37:45] <zinid> 5000
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[09:37:54] <zinid> bumped recently I guess, it used to be 1000 I think
[09:37:58] <Holger> Yup.
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[09:38:47] <zinid> I don't think we the value is well-thought, we just stick to some default limit for any internal queues 🙂
[09:39:14] <zinid> it used to be 1000 everywhere, now it's 5000 everywhere 😀
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[09:39:40] <Holger> Well 1k was hit in practice so my thought was "let's go for 5k" :-)
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[09:40:26] <MattJ> Right, the scenario I'm thinking of, at least in Prosody, would mean that joining a 1000 or 5000 occupant MUC would basically always kill your connection
[09:40:44] <MattJ> Granted, these things are rare to non-existent :)
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[09:41:08] <Holger> (Plus I wanted to keep the default smaller than our FSM queue size which is 10k now I think.)
[09:41:24] <MattJ> *nod*
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[09:42:05] <Holger> MattJ: Well the client *might* manage to ACK things while receiving those 5k presence stanzas.
[09:42:07] <MattJ> Another, possibly more polite, option is to just bounce new stanzas trying to enter the queue
[09:42:15] <Holger> But yes such cases are the problem.
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[09:42:33] <MattJ> Holger, in our case, at least currently, that wouldn't happen if the MUC was local
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[09:43:00] <MattJ> The MUC join will always complete before data is sent/received between Prosody and the client
[09:43:00] <Holger> I remember someone using Facebook transport with thousands of contacts and hitting this on every login.
[09:43:12] <Holger> Ah.
[09:43:28] <MattJ> Hence my "erlang may help here" thought
[09:43:54] <MattJ> If we decoupled the local MUC processing a bit, it would be a little better
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[09:45:12] <Holger> > Another, possibly more polite, option is to just bounce new stanzas trying to enter the queue
Seems hairy to me.  You bounce some stanzas and later, when the queue size is fine again, you continue as usual?
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[09:47:22] <Holger> zinid: Hmm if I'm reading the code correctly we hibernate the SM session after policy-violation, rather than bouncing/closing the session immediately.  We did the latter in the past, I guess that got lost during some refactoring ...
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[09:50:45] <flow> MattJ, isn't this a general problem? What if a non-sm enabled client joins a 5k MUC while on a 9600bps connection, at some point some potential existing internal queue will overflow
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[09:51:56] <flow> I fail to see how this is specific to stream management
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[09:52:35] <MattJ> Holger, says the advocate for invasive CSI optimizations ;)
[09:53:05] <MattJ> Holger, I don't see any problem with bouncing (not dropping), temporary delivery failures are a thing in the real world
[09:53:22] <flow> MattJ, so you enter a MUC and miss some participants?
[09:53:30] <MattJ> flow, yes, it's a problem there too, though generally there is less state around that, it's a simple byte buffer
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[09:53:49] <MattJ> flow, the error bounce would kick you from the MUC, so the join would fail
[09:53:55] <zinid> Holger, maybe 😕
[09:54:12] <MattJ> flow, with ejabberd's current solution your whole connection gets dropped and the same result, ultimately
[09:54:13] <flow> MattJ, ahh right
[09:55:06] <flow> MattJ, I wonder if there is any other solution to dropping the connection without allowing the client to consume an unbounded amount of the servers resources. Which is obviously not desireable
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[09:56:06] <MattJ> flow, I'm not advocating for unbounded resource usage (in fact that's what Prosody's current module allows, and is why it's not allowed in core)
[09:56:07] <flow> MattJ, is less state really important here? I would assume it is just a typical producer/consumer scenario where the consumer is way slower then the producer
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[09:56:46] <MattJ> so I'm trying to figure out what the best behaviour is, because I've never seen it discussed
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[09:57:16] <flow> What are the options besides dropping stanza or dropping the connection as a whole?
[09:57:36] <flow> err bouncing stanzas
[09:57:40] <MattJ> s/dropping the stanza/bouncing the stanza/ - big difference :)
[09:57:55] <flow> MattJ, hmm, not sure about that, what if the bounced stanzas are itself dropped?
[09:58:09] <flow> You can't expect the bounce to arrive
[09:58:10] <MattJ> Same problem we already have with error stanzas in general
[09:58:22] <MattJ> Sure, but that can happen today with any other kind of error too
[09:58:48] <flow> Right, so every XMPP based protocol must be designed to cope with lost stanzas or to ensure itself the reliable delivery of the stanza
[09:59:04] <MattJ> Delivery errors can and do happen (temporarily unable to connect to a remote server, for example), so whenever I see complaints about using error stanzas it makes no sense to me
[09:59:05] <MattJ> Sure
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[09:59:51] <flow> People complain about error stanzas?
[09:59:53] <flow> Buuuhuuu
[10:00:00] <MattJ> It would be nice if e.g. a stanza from one stream would only be 198-acked if it was successfully committed to the recipient's 198 stream, but that would be impractical for many implementations/deployments most likely :)
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[10:00:34] <flow> Well that would require XMPPs fire-and-forget routing to become a transactional routing mechanism
[10:00:41] <MattJ> Given that Prosody's current 198 module unconditionally bounces unacked stanzas with errors, yes, I've seen many complaints about the unreliability of error stanzas :)
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[16:18:59] <tyler> Is mod_irc basically dead?
[16:19:15] <tyler> Or is it so stable and rock solid it hasn't needed any updates.
[16:19:15] <tyler> :-)
[16:19:34] <Holger> It's dead and has been removed from the core.
[16:19:40] <Holger> Try biboumi instead.
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[16:29:33] <zinid> tyler: we recommend biboumi now
[16:29:45] <tyler> Thanks you both!
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[18:11:26] <tyler> Biboumi up and running. Thanks!!
[18:11:47] <tyler> Had some trouble getting sqlite to work but... Just gave up and disabled it.
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[18:43:10] <Holger> > zinid: Hmm if I'm reading the code correctly we hibernate the SM session after policy-violation
That was wrong, following the code path isn't totally trivial :-)  We still close/bounce immediately, everything fine.
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[18:50:46] <zinid> Holger: 👍
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