Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Sunday, October 18, 2020< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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[00:53:34] <Steven Roose> (I know it's off topic, but how different are Erlang and Elixir? Like is there one that's more popular/used nowadays? Any particular use cases that favor either? Are they significantly enough different that they have different learning curves or do they overlap? It's horrible how hard it is to Google things like "difference between X and Y", those search terms are totally killed by SEO.)
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[06:46:56] <Holger> Steven Roose: I think Elixir is mostly just about syntax, i.e. avoiding to scare away people with Erlang's Prolog look. You design Elixir applications pretty much the same way as you do with Erlang. Except it looks a bit like Ruby. The one cool feature I see in Elixir is that it makes meta programming dead simple, implementing a DSL would be much nicer than with Erlang. Plus it avoids some historical baggage that Erlang has (e.g. Erlang has a two string types which is a mess; Elixir tries to mostly hide the old one).
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[06:49:35] <Holger> Steven Roose: So it's a matter of taste. You could argue that Elixir is nicer without loosing anything from Erlang, or you could argue that you don't win much above Erlang but effectively have to learn both (because you'll need to interface with Erlang libraries sooner or later).
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[06:51:46] <Holger> This one is much cooler in my book:
https://gleam.run
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[06:52:16] <Holger> I built some ejabberd glue and an example module a while back 🙂
[06:53:02] <Holger> But Gleam probably won't get anywhere. People want Ruby syntax, not static typing.
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[08:18:12] <Steven Roose> Holger: nice thanks for the elaboration :) hmm, I do like static typing though 😅 I'll look at gleam, but probably try learn Elixir :)
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[08:20:50] <Holger> Erlang and Elixir do have optional type specs as well, which are widely used with new code. Static code checking is better than with some other languages which did this as an afterthought. But not as good as with other languages that have this built-in.
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[09:09:20] <Holger> (To be fair, part of the "not as good" story is that type inference is very minimal, as strict inference would conflict with the "let it crash" idea: You often just code the happy path, and if this involves ignoring unexpected types, Erlang's/Elixir's type inference will be fine with that, because often it is just fine. Haskell or OCaml would complain as you're supposed to do defensive programming there. Therefore, you need explicit type specs in order to let the static type checker distinguish between consciously vs. accidentally unhandled types.)
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[11:52:42] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[11:53:27] alex joins the room
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[12:21:40] Сейд joins the room
[12:22:08] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[12:22:14] sonny joins the room
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[12:24:19] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[12:25:09] sonny joins the room
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[12:28:00] dominion leaves the room
[12:31:14] seb leaves the room
[12:31:14] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[12:32:23] Slava Bendersky joins the room
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[12:48:59] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[12:52:24] Slava Bendersky joins the room
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[12:58:16] Сейд leaves the room
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[13:03:52] draft9 leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
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[13:11:07] Сейд leaves the room
[13:11:25] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[13:12:24] Slava Bendersky joins the room
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[13:29:17] jannic leaves the room
[13:29:48] j.r leaves the room
[13:31:20] draft9 leaves the room
[13:31:56] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[13:32:02] sonny joins the room
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[13:41:08] stvn leaves the room
[13:42:05] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[13:42:40] Slava Bendersky joins the room
[13:42:41] tyler leaves the room
[13:44:50] Stephen leaves the room
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[13:50:10] tyler leaves the room
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[13:52:38] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[13:52:40] Slava Bendersky joins the room
[13:52:41] draft9 leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[13:52:42] draft9 joins the room
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[13:57:33] perflyst joins the room
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[13:59:51] vu764hd68fxt leaves the room
[14:00:48] draft9 leaves the room
[14:00:53] Stephen leaves the room
[14:01:02] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[14:01:10] sonny joins the room
[14:02:06] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[14:03:16] Slava Bendersky joins the room
[14:03:51] xi leaves the room
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[14:06:04] sonny joins the room
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[14:10:30] robert_mobil joins the room
[14:10:54] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[14:11:56] stvn joins the room
[14:12:16] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:12:28] raver joins the room
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[14:12:59] daniel leaves the room
[14:13:02] raver leaves the room
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[14:17:04] SouL joins the room
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[14:18:04] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:18:09] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[14:18:17] perflyst leaves the room
[14:18:51] SouL joins the room
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[14:19:51] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:20:48] SouL joins the room
[14:21:11] j.r leaves the room
[14:21:36] marek leaves the room
[14:21:48] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
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[14:22:39] SouL joins the room
[14:23:00] [Alien] leaves the room: Machine going to sleep
[14:23:16] Slava Bendersky joins the room
[14:23:39] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:24:37] SouL joins the room
[14:24:43] DebXWoody joins the room
[14:25:37] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:26:24] SouL joins the room
[14:27:24] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:28:16] SouL joins the room
[14:28:38] Tim leaves the room
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[14:28:56] tyler joins the room
[14:29:16] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:30:10] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[14:30:23] SouL joins the room
[14:32:21] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:32:23] Steven Roose joins the room
[14:32:27] quentin leaves the room
[14:32:28] Barny leaves the room
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[14:34:15] dos joins the room
[14:35:20] bammes leaves the room
[14:35:28] SouL joins the room
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[14:37:06] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:37:07] stp joins the room
[14:37:28] marc leaves the room
[14:37:32] Stephen joins the room
[14:38:03] marc joins the room
[14:38:04] justatest joins the room
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[14:39:45] kikuchiyo joins the room
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[14:40:05] robert_mobil leaves the room
[14:40:10] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:40:12] sonny joins the room
[14:40:34] robert_mobil joins the room
[14:41:03] kikuchiyo joins the room
[14:41:13] SouL joins the room
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[14:43:02] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[14:44:07] kikuchiyo joins the room
[14:44:20] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[14:44:42] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[14:45:13] poni leaves the room
[14:45:16] draft9 leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[14:45:17] draft9 joins the room
[14:45:27] kikuchiyo joins the room
[14:45:28] SouL leaves the room: Disconnected: BOSH client silent for over 60 seconds
[14:45:38] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[14:46:15] draft9 leaves the room
[14:46:37] kikuchiyo joins the room
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[14:59:58] kikuchiyo joins the room
[15:00:09] kikuchiyo leaves the room
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[15:02:08] kikuchiyo leaves the room
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[15:06:01] kikuchiyo joins the room
[15:06:12] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[15:06:27] kikuchiyo joins the room
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[15:08:08] stvn leaves the room
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[15:09:37] kikuchiyo joins the room
[15:09:48] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[15:10:03] kikuchiyo joins the room
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[15:10:56] kikuchiyo joins the room
[15:11:08] kikuchiyo leaves the room
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[15:11:35] kikuchiyo leaves the room
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[15:14:53] henrik joins the room
[15:16:30] maddl leaves the room
[15:16:55] maddl joins the room
[15:18:16] draft9 leaves the room
[15:20:32] vu764hd68fxt leaves the room
[15:21:08] sonny joins the room
[15:22:05] Stephen leaves the room
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[15:22:39] Сейд joins the room
[15:23:07] christoph leaves the room
[15:24:09] carlos leaves the room
[15:24:18] carlos joins the room
[15:26:51] perflyst leaves the room
[15:27:05] perflyst joins the room
[15:28:15] stp leaves the room
[15:30:07] Stephen leaves the room
[15:30:10] Stephen joins the room
[15:34:14] ta joins the room
[15:36:13] Сейд leaves the room
[15:38:30] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: Broken pipe
[15:39:41] rom1dep joins the room
[15:40:07] stp joins the room
[15:40:31] draft9 joins the room
[15:41:51] [Alien] joins the room
[15:43:32] bowlofeggs leaves the room
[15:43:33] bowlofeggs joins the room
[15:46:55] raver leaves the room
[15:49:31] dos leaves the room
[15:51:28] draft9 leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[15:51:30] draft9 joins the room
[15:52:26] draft9 leaves the room
[15:55:52] Slava Bendersky leaves the room
[15:56:10] draft9 joins the room
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[16:02:10] marc leaves the room
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[16:07:32] paul leaves the room
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[16:10:16] debacle joins the room
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[16:11:14] bowlofeggs leaves the room
[16:11:15] bowlofeggs joins the room
[16:11:19] mynacol leaves the room
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[16:13:52] draft9 joins the room
[16:14:49] draft9 leaves the room
[16:14:59] sonny joins the room
[16:15:34] riau.pro leaves the room
[16:17:08] Mike leaves the room
[16:17:08] Mike joins the room
[16:19:07] marc joins the room
[16:19:59] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[16:23:03] jadmanthrat leaves the room
[16:23:19] marc leaves the room
[16:26:11] Mike leaves the room
[16:26:12] Mike joins the room
[16:29:48] henrik leaves the room
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[16:40:01] Stephen leaves the room
[16:40:03] Stephen joins the room
[16:41:07] Stephen leaves the room
[16:41:09] Stephen joins the room
[16:42:15] Stephen leaves the room
[16:42:16] Stephen joins the room
[16:42:18] Barny leaves the room
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[16:42:50] mynacol joins the room
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[16:43:02] Stephen leaves the room
[16:43:03] Stephen joins the room
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[16:45:38] seb leaves the room
[16:45:39] seb joins the room
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[16:48:55] Stephen leaves the room
[16:49:52] draft9 leaves the room
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[16:55:11] henrik leaves the room
[16:55:26] rom1dep leaves the room
[16:56:22] seb leaves the room
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[16:56:41] quentin joins the room
[16:57:04] sonny joins the room
[16:57:05] rom1dep joins the room
[16:57:51] BlackEdge joins the room
[16:58:24] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[16:59:16] Jeroen joins the room
[16:59:47] Jeroen leaves the room
[17:00:15] mynacol leaves the room
[17:00:51] poni joins the room
[17:02:26] draft9 joins the room
[17:03:21] draft9 leaves the room
[17:07:06] sonny joins the room
[17:09:01] marevalo joins the room
[17:10:38] ChaosKid42 leaves the room
[17:13:35] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[17:14:06] tyler leaves the room
[17:14:07] tyler joins the room
[17:14:22] daniel leaves the room
[17:16:37] marek leaves the room
[17:18:32] Сейд joins the room
[17:19:21] insanity joins the room
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[17:21:08] An. leaves the room
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[17:50:01] [Alien] leaves the room
[17:50:14] stefan leaves the room
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[18:02:04] Patriot leaves the room
[18:06:49] mynacol leaves the room
[18:06:58] mynacol joins the room
[18:09:09] Slava Bendersky leaves the room
[18:09:28] sonny joins the room
[18:10:34] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[18:10:56] DebXWoody joins the room
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[18:12:16] Slava Bendersky joins the room
[18:12:29] DebXWoody leaves the room
[18:16:26] sonny joins the room
[18:17:40] DebXWoody joins the room
[18:18:22] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[18:18:40] Patriot joins the room
[18:19:08] mynacol leaves the room
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[18:20:39] andrey.g joins the room
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[18:23:44] tyler leaves the room
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[18:34:52] daniel leaves the room
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[22:09:24] <Steven Roose> Uhm, I'm not sure I'm on board with the "let it crash" idea.. I wonder how a high-reliability program like ejabberd handles such a mentality.. Isn't it quite imperative to think beyond the happy path?
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[22:35:15] <Holger> Steven Roose: Ah, was assuming you already stumbled over Erlang/Elixir marketing mentioning "let it crash" as their main fault tolerance mechanism.  Basic idea is, you have tons of lightweight processes/actors.  As their resources are well-isolated (no shared memory, file descriptors, …), an individual process can crash without affecting the rest.  (And can be supervised/restarted on crash if desired, either individually or together with a set of related processes organized in supervision trees.)
[22:38:29] <Holger> Steven Roose: So of course it's not about assuming the happy path being the only one, it's just about how to handle the error path. Basically like the discussion on whether to check for errors inline vs. catching exceptions.  Erlang's way is similar to exceptions, but nicer due to the isolated resources (you don't need to worry about closing file descriptors / connections, what not).
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[22:41:58] <Holger> Steven Roose: And of course you can still do defensive programming; and you often should, when validating input or whatever.  Let it crash is nice for handling 'unexpected' errors, I/O foo, whatever.
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[23:00:13] <Holger> Steven Roose: Anyway in the end I think the marketing is right that this increases fault tolerance.  Typically (almost) all processes are supervised, so you rule out the case where the dev overlooked an error path and thereby crashes the entire application.  You *can* of course implement the same level of fault tolerance in C or other languages, but Erlang/Elixir makes it easier.
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