Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Wednesday, March 16, 2022< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[00:00:34] marc leaves the room
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[00:01:27] Thomas Lewis joins the room
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[00:02:20] carlo leaves the room
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[00:03:31] carlo joins the room
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[00:09:49] carlo leaves the room
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[00:15:09] Mike leaves the room
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[00:21:43] moot leaves the room: Disconnected: Hibernating too long
[00:21:50] marc leaves the room
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[00:26:55] gooya leaves the room
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[00:42:42] sander leaves the room
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[00:43:10] carlo leaves the room
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[00:45:45] sunblade leaves the room
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[00:47:08] ij leaves the room
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[00:50:03] apach leaves the room
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[00:58:48] william.chatner leaves the room
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[01:00:04] apach leaves the room
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[01:01:47] doctor leaves the room
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[01:02:14] marc leaves the room
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[01:02:38] carlo leaves the room
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[01:04:35] stp leaves the room
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[01:04:50] jerry leaves the room
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[01:05:17] marc leaves the room
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[01:07:18] writer77 leaves the room
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[01:09:47] TheCoffeMaker leaves the room
[01:10:05] apach leaves the room
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[01:11:29] TheCoffeMaker joins the room
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[01:13:23] ij leaves the room
[01:13:29] marc leaves the room
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[01:14:29] dima leaves the room
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[01:15:10] franco joins the room
[01:15:25] marc leaves the room
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[01:26:53] pod joins the room
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[01:27:51] jerry leaves the room
[01:29:03] marc leaves the room
[01:29:20] writer77 leaves the room
[01:29:20] Marilyn Monroe leaves the room
[01:31:38] TheCoffeMaker leaves the room
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[01:46:15] pod leaves the room
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[01:48:35] TheCoffeMaker leaves the room
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[01:59:14] Mx2 joins the room
[02:00:12] marc joins the room
[02:00:12] ru_maniac leaves the room
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[02:03:46] doctor leaves the room
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[02:03:59] marc leaves the room
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[02:04:26] TheCoffeMaker leaves the room
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[04:33:35] <moparisthebest> does ejabberd reject sasl external with a standard server certificate (ie, one not marked as for client auth)? seems to with "unsupported certificate purpose" but I hope it's not for that reason :/
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[04:47:46] <moparisthebest> > [warning] (tls|<0.719.0>) Failed inbound s2s EXTERNAL authentication one.example.org -> two.example.org (::ffff:192.5.0.20): unsupported certificate purpose
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[04:48:59] <moparisthebest> this is what ejabberd's debug log says ^
the certificates were created like: mkcert        -cert-file one.example.org.crt -key-file one.example.org.key one.example.org
if you are familiar with https://github.com/FiloSottile/mkcert
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[04:49:13] <moparisthebest> (so it's installed as a trusted CA)
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[04:51:33] <moparisthebest> this is the relevant config in my integration tests https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-proxy/tree/master/integration/27-s2s-prosody-ejabberd , you could also try to join xmpp:xmpp-proxy@code.moparisthe.best?join for a real life example with a LE cert, some ejabberds seem able to join and some not, hence why I made the integration test to try to debug locally
[04:51:58] <moparisthebest> (that particular integration test is just prosody <-> ejabberd without xmpp-proxy in the middle to establish a baseline)
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[05:16:46] <moparisthebest> I think these are 2 distinct problems:
1. ejabberd isn't happy with mkcert created certificates for some reason
2. ejabberd has a trivial DOS where if you return an https server as the first _xmpps-server record it'll never try any others :'(
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[05:18:39] <moparisthebest> #2 is actually pretty serious, any attacker that controls DNS *or* the route to the first record you try could block all communication
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[08:43:03] <Holger> moparisthebest,
#1 Yes, the certificate needs the "TLS Web Client Authentication" extension to be accepted as a client cert.  That's enforced by OpenSSL.  (I think Prosody uses some hack to avoid that as e.g. Let's Encrypt certs didn't have that extension back in the days, but I haven't seen anyone stumble over this in ages.)
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[08:44:18] <Holger> #2 I didn't get yet.  Maybe I missed a message?  Your point is that ejabberd doesn't fall back to additional SRV records if the first one fails in certain ways?
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[08:45:00] <Holger> I remember discussions on what failure cases exactly should be handled what way but it didn't always seem obvious to me.
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[08:48:01] <Holger> Either way, I would've thought it's obvious that an attacker controlling DNS can block all communication.  And yes I would also expect controlling the first route being good enough to block all communication.  (You sound like multiple SRV records are somehow meant to increase security?)
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[08:50:19] <pchmielowski> i see that there is code that should iterate over multiple addresses in s2s, but maybe there is some kind of bug in that?
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[08:52:05] <Holger> Yes it definitely iterates over addresses, I _guess_ the question is about what remote behavior will trigger us to fall back.  moparisthebest mentioned HTTPS, so I was assuming it's about a server that accepts the TCP connection + TLS handshake but then doesn't talk XMPP.
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[08:54:02] <Holger> At that point I'm unsure whether we'd even be supposed to fall back to the next address.  As I said I remember discussions but forgot any outcome, as usual 🙂
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[08:54:24] <pchmielowski> ah, could be, looks like we just take first connection where we managed to connect
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[08:56:07] <Holger> Yeah.  Question is whether or not that's fine 🤷‍♂️️
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[08:57:05] <pchmielowski> yes, i can see choosing one or another
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[08:59:10] <Holger> The next question would then be how to handle the case where the remote sends a stream header but then continues in weird ways, and so on.
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[09:13:05] <Zash> >  (I think Prosody uses some hack to avoid that as e.g. Let's Encrypt certs didn't have that extension back in the days, but I haven't seen anyone stumble over this in ages.)
It's from the StartCom days even. Maybe early LE certs too but current ones have the proper purpose.
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[09:17:16] <Holger> Yup.
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[09:17:43] <Holger> Zash, there's something in LuaSec to cope with the missing extension, IIRC?
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[09:21:39] <Holger> I remember pondering with adding the same thing to our OpenSSL bindings, and then LE added the extension and nobody cared anymore.
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[09:22:23] <Zash> Yeah, a flag to validate client certs as server certs
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[12:49:25] <AlanE> I'm working on adding a couchdb database backend for ejabberd, specifically for archive msgs, just wondering if anyone else has looked at this and has any info to share
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[12:50:37] <moparisthebest> Yea I also had to hack around with the rustls API to make it accept server certs as client certs
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[12:51:41] <Holger> AlanE, I remember some code on GitHub but that was many many years ago.
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[12:51:45] <moparisthebest> But as to the srv issue, yes someone controlling DNS can block connecting, but someone controlling part of the route to your first server shouldn't be able to block all connecting
[12:52:12] <AlanE> I found some old code that used couch for authentication and nothing else
[12:52:31] <Holger> Ah maybe that's what I mean.
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[12:52:42] <Holger> moparisthebest, how would you avoid that?
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[12:53:22] <Holger> moparisthebest, you mean the case where Dialback is disabled and the attacker cannot provide a valid certificate?
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[12:54:04] <Holger> Maybe just explain an exact example scenario you have in mind which ejabberd should handle differently than it does right now rather than having me guess 🙂
[12:54:05] <moparisthebest> So it should fall back until it runs out of srv records or successfully starts XMPP communication (I consider this as having done the full TLS handshake, and read the correct steam header)
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[12:54:41] <Holger> > I consider this as having done the full TLS handshake, and read the correct steam header
Ok that's precisely the question.
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[12:55:08] <Holger> Why's that the right point?
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[12:55:48] <Zash> Why not post-SASL? Why not the point where you've sent all the queued stanzas?
[12:55:50] <Holger> If the attacker gets that far and _then_ starts communicating crap we should no longer fall back?
[12:55:55] <Holger> Yeah.
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[12:58:09] <Holger> Multiple SRV entries work well for HA and/or load balancing.  For those cases, it's good enough to fall back if connecting fails.  I'm not sure we'll get far trying to achieve _other_ goals with SRV entries.
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[12:59:33] <Zash> 99.999% of the network only has one (logical) SRV target anyway, so eh
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[13:01:59] <Holger> Well I'm fine discussing how to get the 0.001% case right 🙂  And I'm obviously all open for being convinced otherwise.  (But I don't think discussing this in terms of "trivial DoS" and "pretty serious attack vector" makes sense as it makes the issue sound way more obvious than it seems to me.  Less dramatizing language works better for me 🙂)
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[13:05:10] <Holger> If only I could remember the outcome of previous discussions on this exact topic!  My brain is entirely useless.
[13:05:24] <moparisthebest> Holger, sorry had to get to an actual keyboard :) https://alpaca-attack.com/ is an actual attack in the wild, an attacker that can control just a part of your network path can redirect your connection to https with a valid cert without actually controlling the valid cert
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[13:06:12] <moparisthebest> so TLS authentication + proper XMPP stream header is the bare minimum where you should stop SRV fallback
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[13:06:50] <moparisthebest> ejabberd seems to stop at either open port *or* open port with proper TLS cert (I didn't check open port without proper TLS cert...)
[13:06:51] <pchmielowski> eh, if someone can change your dns, then it also can issue new certifcate for it, so it's game over anyway
[13:07:24] <moparisthebest> not if they can only change *your* DNS (like a bad wifi hotspot), but this isn't really related to DNS anyway
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[13:08:34] <Zash> Isn't that about changing the TCP level port number combined with wildcard certificates allowing too much?
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[13:09:56] <pchmielowski> well even if it can change server local dns, then it can just point response of other server srv to /dev/null, i don't see why it would just limit itself to changing only first entry
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[13:10:04] <moparisthebest> well, just redirecting TCP traffic to a different port at least
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[13:10:38] <moparisthebest> pchmielowski, right but this is about an attacker that just controls part of the route to your first server, they shouldn't be able to stop you from trying to connect to your second server
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[13:12:03] <pep.> Does ejabberd have the same behaviour when both records have the same weight? Or are they fired at the same time à la pretty eyeballs?
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[13:12:15] <Holger> Again, you're taking something for granted that I think isn't, i.e. that SRV fallback mechanims would be designed to be a security mechanism.
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[13:12:39] <moparisthebest> it's not security, but it is redundancy right? which is negated if you give up prematurely
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[13:13:53] <pchmielowski> for hosts with same weight i think order is choosen randomly
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[13:14:27] <Zash> with the same priority. weight is used to adjust the probabilities
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[13:14:44] <pep.> Zash, right
[13:14:44] <Holger> Yes ejabberd does that stuff as per the RFC.
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[13:14:59] <Holger> moparisthebest, you keep implying the point where giving up is _premature_ would be obvious.  And you then go on stating we chosse the wrong point and your reasoning is some attack vector.
[13:15:04] <pep.> Adjust my question accordingly then :P
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[13:16:26] <Zash> And the only solution is going to be QUIC I expect.
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[13:17:18] <Holger> BTW is Prosodys behavior different here?
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[13:18:09] <Holger> And what about 'typical'(?) client behavior?
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[13:18:16] <Zash> Prosody is perfect, don't need to investigate!
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[13:19:03] <Holger> Would've assumed the answer is "depends on which modules you're using" 😛
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[13:19:38] <Zash> Obviously you have to enable mod_do_whatever_you_think_is_correct first
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[13:20:30] <moparisthebest> Holger, not sure about prosody, Conversations had this behavior originally and I corrected it January 2016
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[13:20:44] <moparisthebest> Dino had that behavior at some point but fixed it...
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[13:21:15] <Holger> Ok so it's all very obvious to you 🙂
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[13:21:29] <moparisthebest> the wrong point is any place an attacker that controls some of your network can block further attempts without control of a TLS cert
[13:21:40] <pchmielowski> I think right now for xmpps-server we are assuming connection is fine after ssl handshake, to xmpp-server when we connect to server, but before starttls
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[13:22:01] <moparisthebest> but for S2S, I think it's good enough for TLS handshake + stream header
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[13:22:20] <pchmielowski> we probably could make wait for successfull starttls
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[13:22:44] <moparisthebest> successful starttls isn't enough either, go one step further and successfully read the first <stream:stream
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[13:25:22] <pchmielowski> well not that much difference really, if someone will be able to mitm you, then it can just proxy real s2s connection, and just stop sending more data after some point
[13:25:32] <moparisthebest> relevant code: https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-proxy/blob/master/src/srv.rs#L321 + https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-proxy/blob/master/src/main.rs#L447 but tl;dr read until the end of the first <stream:stream> after TLS was successful
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[13:27:11] <moparisthebest> hmm let *some* traffic be communicated across TLS they can't see then just halt it later? I suppose you are right, perhaps it should keep track of how streams ended and put them at the end of the list when reconnecting?
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[13:28:39] <Holger> Or maybe SRV redundancy is just not designed to be an effective security mechanism.
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[13:29:02] <moparisthebest> this is unrelated
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[13:29:22] <Holger> Hm?
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[13:29:55] <moparisthebest> you can have fully DNSSEC authenticated SRV over TLS over Tor and it doesn't help if you give up prematurely
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[13:30:20] <Holger> I never said it would.
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[13:30:30] <Holger> Let's avoid strawman crap.
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[13:30:50] <moparisthebest> right, the bottom line is you want to try to connect all possible ways, not give up early
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[13:36:25] <Holger> As I said initially, I fail to see how to protect against an attacker who controls the first path.  If your protection looks like "perhaps it should keep track of how streams ended and put them at the end of the list when reconnecting" (does that imply ignoring SRV rules at that point?) then I'm back to having the impression that SRV wasn't designed to cope with your attack vector.
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[13:36:57] <moparisthebest> where do SRV rules say give up at the first open TCP port ?
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[13:37:26] <moparisthebest> but you should ignore some SRV rules for sure, like the one that says not to try to connect at all if you get "." in the response
[13:37:44] <Holger> The rules don't involve taking previous connections into account.
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[13:38:45] <moparisthebest> but they don't say when you should give up, so presumably you do it when it makes sense for your protocol, which for XMPP is at least after the first stream header after TLS
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[13:39:25] <Holger> ...
[13:39:28] <Holger> I'll just shut up.
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[13:40:26] <moparisthebest> I mean there is a benefit that it makes it more likely to connect if you do this, what benefit is there to not doing this?
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[13:42:31] <pchmielowski> eh, you need to bailout at some point, you always need to weight stuff you do
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[13:43:06] <pchmielowski> you can connect to remote server and then wait (for how long?) for response from other side
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[13:43:28] <pchmielowski> and go to next one, and repeat this
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[13:44:09] <pchmielowski> but you also pay by not informing local side that connection is not estabilished
[13:44:15] <moparisthebest> yea, need to require some amount of speed to mitigate SlowLoris type attacks
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[13:44:37] <moparisthebest> no user is going to prefer being told you gave up earlier vs actually connecting
[13:44:58] <pchmielowski> replyting to your user that server is not accessible after hour is probably not that great as well
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[13:49:48] <moparisthebest> but if each connection isn't going to take more than X seconds and you limit SRV records to... 10 or something, should be acceptable always ?
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[13:50:45] <Holger> It's trade-offs so the desired behavior isn't obvious to me.  The only thing that seems obvious to me is that this is _not_ a security-related issue.  It might be about handling cases such as misbehaving/overloaded remote servers.  In which case the right point of bailing out is again very much _not_ obvious to me.  Isn't it premature to give up once the stream header was fine?
[13:51:02] <moparisthebest> we've been saying this for years but I guess these kind of best practices need written down someplace finally... though seems like it might be controversial, would be a good way to reach consensus
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[13:51:22] <Holger> Plus yes such timeouts are the next non-obvious trade-offs.
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[13:51:59] <Holger> moparisthebest, was going to suggest exactly that, yes.  If these things are all-obvious to others, a best practices XEP would be useful.
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[13:54:19] <moparisthebest> this is a common theme in XMPP-land (probably others as well), but some things are obvious to different people, usually only after having been bit by that particular thing :)
[13:54:57] <moparisthebest> like I didn't think of the considerations of an attacker returning 1000 SRV records for instance until you just brought it up
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[14:02:46] <moparisthebest> thanks for the discussion and the answer about the cert by the way, does ejabberd have any automated tests that test federation ?
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[14:04:42] <pchmielowski> we have test for s2s, but they uses only local servers (with self signed certificates)
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[14:05:45] <pchmielowski> we don't try to connect to remote servers, that requires ca signed certs which are not that easy to mange when running tests
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[14:06:46] <moparisthebest> can you point me in the direction of that code? I'm mainly interested in how exactly you generate those certs but I can probably find that bit myself :)
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[14:07:29] <MattJ> Well, as far as I can tell ejabberd only does dialback with most federated servers right now, due to the Let's Encrypt issue... so valid certs aren't strictly required :)
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[14:08:07] <pchmielowski> i think this does it https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/blob/master/test/ejabberd_SUITE_data/gencerts.sh
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[14:08:21] <pchmielowski> plus some other files in that dir
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[14:08:32] <moparisthebest> that's what I thought was the problem initially, but after I fixed my SRV records a few ejabberd users have joined my MUC which doesn't do dialback
[14:08:46] <Holger> Yes "it depends" 🙂
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[14:09:11] <pchmielowski> make
[14:09:14] <pchmielowski> ups
[14:09:27] <Holger> Most ejabberd setups still do cert auth just fine.
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[14:09:42] <moparisthebest> thanks much pchmielowski , I'll see if I can get changes to make ejabberd happy into mkcert maybe :)
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[14:10:31] <Zash> Myeah, I was only aware of movim having trouble and falling back to dialback
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[14:10:39] <Holger> Yup.
[14:10:44] <Holger> Should be fixed by now as well.
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[14:11:00] <MattJ> Good to know
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[16:53:38] <Kris> Since there are probably lots of Elixir programmers here: https://cyberchaos.dev/kloenk/matrix-appservice-xmpp
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[16:54:18] <Kris> Does that look like something usable already?
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[16:54:30] <Kris> No docu at all sadly
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[17:25:20] <Holger> Why another one?  4k lines vs. 17k lines Bifröst.
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[17:29:17] <Kris> Bifrost is kinda overcomplicated and buggy
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[17:29:43] <Kris> Also Nodejs 🤢
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[17:30:26] <Kris> I'm hoping this one is better of xmpp users
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[21:25:36] <spiral> hi, I migrated my ejabberd server and now I get notifications really late (~ a few minutes instead of instantly), without changing anything on my client
[21:25:45] <spiral> is there something I might have missed in the migration?
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[21:32:37] <spiral> I asked on my client's chat and apparently the tcp connection might be getting interrupted?
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