Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Friday, June 17, 2022< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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[09:48:08] <Licaon_Kter> What's delaying the tcpqueue PRs Holger ? :)
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[09:50:31] <Holger> Well I submitted them as PRs as they touch the low-level connection stuff, so if they introduced new bugs that would be potentially bad, so peer review would be nice.  Now someone must find some time to look I guess.
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[09:50:54] <Holger> They do work for me 🙂
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[09:52:22] <Zash> Meanwhile, me: Doing the opposite.
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[09:53:20] <Holger> My brain is working hard on figuring out what "the opposite" might be 🙂
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[09:54:02] <Holger> Looking at PRs that touch high-level stuff!
[09:55:44] <Zash> I've fiddled with tweaks for reducing latency instead of increasing it, writing things immediately to the network without even checking if the socket is ready, disabling Nagle's algorithm, TCP Fast Open
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[09:57:25] <Holger> Oh, heh.
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[09:57:53] <Holger> Yeah I think Prosody is typically behaving they way my option would allow for by default?
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[09:58:20] <Zash> _Instant_ Messaging, not Eventually Messaging!
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[09:58:49] <Holger> I.e. you do batch up several elements into a single TCP packet occasionally? At least with regard to a stanza and a following SM element or something?
[09:59:04] <Holger> Or that's just random nonsense in my brain.
[09:59:18] <Zash> Yeah. The default is to queue outgoing data and poll for the socket to be writable (which it usually is) which ends up having the effect of batching outgoing writes.
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[10:01:29] <Holger> The desired behavior obviously depends on your environment/preferences so I think it makes sense to be configurable, but for typical™ mobile IM I do think queuing will usually be desirable.
[10:01:30] <Zash> Since 0.12 we send SM from just before the actual socket write, regardless of scheduling.
[10:02:37] <Holger> Didn't really understand how queueing and polling for writability are related?
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[10:02:44] <Zash> I expect Typical Mobile IM™ will spend 99% of the time in CSI idle mode, where things are aggressively queued anyway
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[10:03:08] <Holger> Well yeah we're talking about more minor optimizations on top of course.
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[10:03:41] <Holger> CSI or not, you do end up receiving traffic.  Queueing reduces the overhead and therefore the amout of traffic/processing.
[10:03:58] <Holger> The amount may or may not be interesting of course 🙂
[10:04:39] <Zash> Hm? Writes normally go into a per-socket buffer and registers a watcher for socket being writable. When polling reports that the socket is writable, (SM is invoked via callback here) the buffer is collapsed into a blob and sent.
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[10:05:48] <Zash> Most writes will indirectly happen after polling reported a socket readable, i.e. an incoming message or something, which then goes out somewhere else.
[10:06:03] <Zash> Just Single Threaded Event Loop Things maybe
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[10:06:20] <Holger> Still not sure 🙂 The first stanza entering the buffer triggers polling and during the time window until you get a result, you usually™ buffer subsequent stanzas?
[10:06:31] <Zash> Yes
[10:06:51] <Holger> (But yes I get how the SM callback is a special story of course.)
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[10:06:59] <Holger> Ah, I see then, thx 🙂
[10:07:19] <Zash> I found that very often, the number of items in that buffer is 1, and went on to optimize for that.
[10:07:28] <Zash> .... but now it's 2, because SM
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[10:07:42] <Holger> My memories were all wrong then (or maybe right back then?), I had in mind you optionally "attach" SM elements to stanzas before they even enter the connection stack.
[10:08:31] <Zash> I think it worked that way loooooooooong ago, but it was hacky and broke things because of how doing so turned them from the internal stanza object into byte strings, so further processing on the stanzas weren't possible
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[10:09:07] <Holger> Ah, makes sense.
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[10:09:47] <Zash> We also went trough all sorts of hacks and monkeypatches to get the <r> in at a sensible time without causing two TCP segments
[10:10:45] <Zash> I'm pretty happy with the current hook from the point where it prepares to do the real socket write
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[10:12:34] <Zash> Also means the tweak that bypasses the write polling and writes immediately still sends the <r> along.
[10:13:48] <Zash> In theory I think writing immediately and dropping the buffers should keep memory usage down, as it won't have to hold on to that for another turn of the poll loop or however many it takes.
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[10:16:20] <Zash> Also, with Nagle's algorithm, the kernel may end up batching data into larger TCP packages on its own.
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[10:16:25] <Holger> Yeah that's the part that confused me slightly above: When I did event loop stuff in C I typically set the socket non-blocking, and then just attempted any connect/send/whatever, and only if that returned EWOULDBLOCK I'd go into the loop.
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[10:17:00] <Holger> Yeah, though it had little to no effect in practice in my tests.
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[10:17:14] <Holger> I mean with ejabberd's patterns of sending traffic.  Not in general 🙂
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[10:17:28] <Holger> (Nagle, that is.)
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[10:20:19] <Zash> Mm, well Prosodys older network code has been doing the write polling thing since before Prosody existed (the code dates back to a direct connect server).
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[10:22:07] <Zash> "opportunistic writes" does of course fall back to polling on EAGAIN, when whatever kernel buffers are full, tho those are usually way larger than most XMPP stanzas, mostly see it trigger when serving HTTP Upload files.
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[10:31:41] <Holger> Yup.
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[12:11:19] <Giovanni> Hi people, I'm learning about xep 0027 (OpenPGP for message encryption): but how does it work when it comes to MUC? Omemo is a viable alternative (and, forgive my ignorance, is OMEMO totally client-side and does not require server support)? Thank you
[12:13:19] <Holger> OMEMO requires PEP support.
[12:14:13] <Holger> 0027 is totally client-side.  I'm not really into the client side but I'd think it's quite straightforward in private group chats.  You just encrypt for all recipients.
[12:14:42] <Holger> Note that there's XEP-0373/0374 as a modern alternative.
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[12:25:31] <Giovanni> Holger thank you for the answer. I'll give a look to 0373/4.
Just encrypt for all recipients: what does it mean? a big message with N encrypted tag, each for every recipient?
For Omemo, so the client has to support PEP (which is supported by ejabberd), right?
[12:26:59] <Holger> > a big message with N encrypted tag, each for every recipient?
PGP has built-in support for encrypting to multiple recipients (the payload is encrypted using a key, which is then encrypted once per recipient), I'd assume this to be used, but I have no idea.  Just test Conversations and look at the XML?
[12:27:16] <Holger> > For Omemo, so the client has to support PEP (which is supported by ejabberd), right?
Yes.
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[12:28:31] <Giovanni> ok, so conversations use PGP; we'll give it a look, thanks
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[12:35:56] <Licaon_Kter> > yes, push for calls is not standarized and AFAIR it is now supported by Tigase and Prosody
:(
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[13:25:34] <Giovanni> Holger I read that "Unlike similar XEPs, e.g., OMEMO Encryption (XEP-0384) [2], this XEP [0374] does not provide Forward Secrecy (FS), but as an advantage in return, allows users to read their archived conversations (respectively their encrypted data) later on."
So OMEMO isn't compatible with MAM?
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[13:26:54] <Licaon_Kter> Giovanni: it is compatible
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[13:27:13] <Zash> Compatible, but not an archive anymore.
[13:27:32] <Licaon_Kter> It means something else.
Like read from another client, you can't.
[13:28:11] <Licaon_Kter> Messages are omemo encrypted for a certain key/device, and then the key is discarded, never to be able to be decrypted.
[13:28:31] <Giovanni> let me understand better: if I have two clients (a desktop one and a mobile one) with my user is not possible to share the same conversation with omemo
[13:28:33] <Licaon_Kter> In PGP you can move the key and decrypt past messages.
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[13:28:58] <Licaon_Kter> Giovanni: at the same time you get messages encrypted with both keys
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[13:29:25] <Licaon_Kter> But if you add a client LATER.... that one can't decrypt pant messages.
[13:29:38] <Licaon_Kter> But if you add a client LATER.... that one can't decrypt past omemo messages.
[13:29:56] <Giovanni> ok now it's more clear, thank you
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[13:30:53] <Giovanni> regarding mam so the server has to store a message for every device? is it the standard behaviour?
[13:30:55] <Zash> MAM provides catch-up, like the old offline messages feature
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[13:33:23] <Licaon_Kter> Giovanni: yes, so you can get them when you come online later.
[13:33:40] <Holger> Giovanni, if my client sends you an OMEMO message.  My client will encrypt it for all your (visible and trusted) OMEMO clients, kinda similarly how PGP encrypts for multiple recipients.  Your MAM archive will store that (single) message (not one per device).
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[13:36:28] <Giovanni> Holger and that single message can be decrypted by all the devices it was meant for?
[13:36:34] <Holger> Yes.
[13:36:41] <Holger> (Once.)
[13:36:49] <Holger> (Once per client.)
[13:37:15] <Giovanni> Ops, what do you mean once per client 😂
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[13:38:18] <Giovanni> i'm kinda dumb, sorry. I receive the message, and decrypt it. Tomorrow I will retreive that same message from MAM, I can decrypt it again?
[13:38:19] <Holger> If you delete the decrypted message from the client's local store and re-retrieve it from the MAM archive, you won't be able to decrypt it again.
[13:38:28] <Giovanni> oooh ok
[13:38:29] <Holger> That's what Zash meant when he said "it's not an ARCHIVE anymore".
[13:38:43] <Giovanni> No it's crystal clear
[13:39:10] <Giovanni> foward secrecy means We can't bother about the past 😄 thank you
[13:39:28] <Holger> For many users, the more annoying issue in practice is that it cannot be decrypted by clients the message wasn't explicitly encrypted for.
[13:39:44] <Holger> E.g. some web client or a newly installed phone.
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[13:40:25] <Giovanni> yeah, I understand
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[13:44:13] <Licaon_Kter> > For many users
Aren't like billons of proprietary messengers users just not caring about this?
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[13:46:06] <Holger> WhatsApp web shows me past history.
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[13:47:40] <Holger> But yes it's probably a minority that cares (I do, and so does my wife, so an important minority!).  I just meant that the "re-retrieve the same message on the same device" thing is even less interesting.
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[13:55:41] <Licaon_Kter> > WhatsApp web shows me past history.
Not from Archive, right? From "other devices" iirc
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[13:56:20] <Holger> I think so, yes.  Just saying that those WhatsApp users that do care are covered.
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[13:57:02] <Zash> Nothing says you couldn't exchange history between devices. E.g. I think Gajim had some "forward unread messages" feature you could invoke from another client. Not as relevant anymore with Carbons and MAM taking care of that, but E2EE takes us back :)
[13:57:10] <Licaon_Kter> _PFS at its best right there_
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[13:58:03] <Zash> Personally I feel like, couldn't we have waited until we got basic reliability perfected before moving on to E2EE?
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[13:58:34] <Licaon_Kter> Perfect is the enemy of good
[13:58:51] <Holger> > couldn't we have waited until we got basic reliability perfected before moving on to E2EE?
Thank you for your question, it's very important to us.  Let me answer for our community: No.
[13:58:51] <Licaon_Kter> Wait for stickers
Wait for A/V
Wait for ...
[13:59:20] <Holger> Stickers and A/V don't make everything fall apart tho.
[13:59:41] <Licaon_Kter> I meant like "there's some stuff to be done first"
[13:59:56] <Licaon_Kter> Where first is decided by each one separately :))
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[14:00:18] <Zash> It sure made debugging ... fun.
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[14:00:36] <Licaon_Kter> Zash:
> "XEP-0198 + S2S"
Ain't that like a "one line reference" in the XEP?
[14:00:45] <Zash> "Okay you're losing messages. What if you disable OMEMO? Oh, then it works perfectly..."
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[14:01:12] <Holger> Licaon_Kter, yeah the XEP was written with c2s in mind and has some "oh on s2s just do it similarly" note.
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[14:02:41] <Holger> Several questions are quite unclear to me, but as usual I can peek at how Prosody solves things 🙂
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[14:03:36] <Zash> Post those questions to standards@?
[14:03:48] <Holger> (Connection to remote server died, client joins room on that server, I queue that up for several minutes before returning an error?)
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[14:03:58] <Holger> Zash, why bother sending email if I can just ask you.
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[14:04:38] <Zash> Ha, minutes? Try hours!
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[14:04:42] <Zash> Thanks Linux TCP stack!
[14:04:42] <Holger> \o/
[14:04:57] <Holger> Well I had some ACK timeout in mind.
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[14:05:00] <Holger> Like I do with clients.
[14:05:14] <Holger> Zash, do you support resumption?
[14:05:20] <Licaon_Kter> Zash: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/discussions/3837
[14:05:21] <Zash> Not with s2s
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[14:06:45] <Holger> Zash, so then with 0198, you trade in silent stanza loss with possibly bogus error messages?
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[14:07:14] <Holger> (Or do you try to resend rather than bouncing, if the remote server comes back?)
[14:07:25] <Zash> It can optionally re-send unacked stanzas on connection failure, so you can trade that for possible dupes! 😀
[14:07:35] <Holger> Right.
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[14:07:58] <Holger> I see our Matrix friends being just mildly impressed ...
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[14:08:31] <Zash> Can't hear them over my 30MB memory usage
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[14:08:41] <Holger> 😀️
[14:08:42] <Licaon_Kter> But Dendrite
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[14:09:22] <Zash> I see your whataboutism and raise you "I hate web", thereby automatically winning the argument forever
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[14:10:15] <Holger> So the point I tried to make on that discussion linked by Licaon_Kter still stands: 0198 would be kinda nice-to-have but you still want reliable s2s links because s2s over unreliable links still sucks even with 0198.
[14:10:39] <Holger> Just maybe a little less/differently, hence nice-to-have.
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[14:11:16] <Zash> getting rid of _silent_ message loss would be a nice start, a bounce is better than nothing
[14:12:00] <Holger> I do agree.  Kinda.  "Hey Holger got red error message despite contact having seen my message never happens with WhatsApp WTF".
[14:12:51] <Zash> I'm also thinking XEP-288 can help by reducing the number of connections that have to succeed
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[14:13:15] <Holger> s2s depending on reliable links is just one of several issues I think we should still have on our to-do list, but it's kinda the only one I have no proper solution for in mind.
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[14:15:48] <Holger> Anyway, weekend! 🎉
[14:15:59] <Zash> !
[14:16:03] <Zash> 😎️
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[14:20:59] <Licaon_Kter> > I see your whataboutism and raise you "I hate web"
No arguments there, let me relogin in Converse for the 7th time in the last 15 mins, done
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[14:22:55] <Zash> 7th time? that's rookie numbers
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[14:23:10] <Zash> https://cerdale.zash.se/s/SHgj-asYmT8Fr_-eNuWgHf3G/8e57efb7-51b2-434d-9908-443560f5eea1.png
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[14:25:27] <Zash> There's 10 reconnects in a 10 minute block in the middle there, tho overall it looks pretty stable. Must be the weather.
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[14:54:07] <Licaon_Kter> That's the manual part, else it spams my logs like this every couple of minutes: https://github.com/conversejs/converse.js/issues/2562
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[21:46:35] chrys leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[21:46:38] chrys joins the room
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[22:04:57] <Licaon_Kter> Interesting, ejabberd will loop restart if there's no swap space, memory free 700Mb out of 1GB and `vm.overcommit_memory=2`
Fixed by setting `vm.overcommit_memory=1`
[22:04:58] p42ity leaves the room
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[23:52:56] sander joins the room
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