Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Monday, October 23, 2023< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[00:00:03] gratuxri leaves the room
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[00:38:58] Chanaka Jayalath joins the room
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[04:36:59] 匚卄尺丨丂ㄒ丨卂几 joins the room
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[08:37:47] <rossen> S
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[08:44:27] <PaulePanter> > Enforced SCTs would at least make incorrectly issued certificates discoverable.
Does this need to be supported in the server or the clients? Is it supported already?
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[08:44:56] <PaulePanter> > DANE works as long as DNS providers can't be compelled, but channel binding always works as long as the attacker does not know your password (the downside is that it doesn't work for s2s)
Do you know a guide how to configure channel binding?
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[08:54:58] <MattJ> As far as I know ejabberd is the same as Prosody in this regard: channel binding is automatically available whenever possible. The catch is "whenever possible" - I don't think ejabberd supports channel binding with TLS 1.3, only TLS 1.2. Prosody will have that in the next release, and I hope ejabberd can implement it too.
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[10:37:50] <PaulePanter> As ejabberd is used for xmpp.ru, shouldn’t the mismatch then have been discovered much earlier?
[10:38:08] <MattJ> xmpp.ru is running a version of ejabberd from 2016
[10:38:10] <PaulePanter> > As ejabberd is used for xmpp.ru, shouldn’t the mismatch then have been discovered much earlier?
(Please excuse my possibly ignorant questions.)
[10:38:23] <PaulePanter> > xmpp.ru is running a version of ejabberd from 2016
Oh, I didn’t know.
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[12:10:19] <Manis> > Does this need to be supported in the server or the clients? Is it supported already?
SCTs cannot be enforced by the server if that's the component which is compromised. So it requires support in the clients and unfortunately enforcing SCT is not something which can be done automatically by the SSL library (AFAIK).
The problem (like always when it comes to trust) is that anybody can create a signature. Verifying if the signature is trustworthy is a difficult topic.
I believe web browsers download a list of trusted signers and then verify if the signature was made by one of those.
This, of course, makes SSL certificate validation even more fragile and fixing it is likely going to be more complex than installing a new CA certificate in the browser.
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[12:11:57] <Manis> Channel binding will likely be easier to roll out, but also not easily verifyable by the user.
[12:12:17] <MattJ> Checking SCTs (by itself) would not have prevented the jabber.ru MITM, but channel binding would have
[12:12:43] <MattJ> The certificate presented by the MITM was entirely valid and appeared in the CT log with an SCT
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[12:13:08] <Manis> SCT checking would have prevented it only if jabber.ru had had DNSSEC and a CAA record with account ID locking.
[12:13:43] <MattJ> Yes, "only if", and also only if Let's Encrypt could not be legally compelled to issue a cert regardless of CAA
[12:13:43] <Manis> Because then Let's Encrypt would not have signed the MitM's certificate.
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[12:14:24] <Manis> If they had signed a certificate ignoring CAA this should've been visible in the certificate transparency logs.
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[12:14:48] <Manis> SCT is a proof by the CA that the certificate is visible in CT.
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[12:15:08] <MattJ> Sure, but "visible in CT" is not 100% the same as "offered by the real server"
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[12:15:56] <Manis> Can we assume that the attacker did not have the Let's Encrypt account key of jabber.ru?
[12:15:57] <MattJ> If hosting providers can be legally compelled to install traffic interception devices, it's not incredible to believe a CA could be legally compelled to issue a cert to law enforcement (even if it is logged in CT)
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[12:17:07] <Manis> If you compell a CA to sign a certificate ignoring the CAA record, it _should_ be visible that the certificate was requested using an illegal account ID, or not?
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[12:17:35] <Zash> No, why would it?
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[12:18:34] <MattJ> I don't *think* account ID goes into CT, but it makes no difference, they can just put the victim's account ID
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[12:26:13] <romanovna> Г
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[12:31:53] <Manis> Hmm, I did some research because I thought the account ID would be linked to the certificate. But I couldn't find anthing.
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[12:32:33] <Manis> I don't know why I thought it would, but without this cryptographic link, the accounturi CAA extension is good-will I guess.
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[12:33:55] <MattJ> It kind of is. Well, CAs risk being removed from browsers if they ignore CAA records (but it's also not necessarily easy to prove that a CAA record existed retrospectively). But this is new territory, so who knows.
[12:34:22] <MattJ> All I know is that channel binding solves all this and relies on no third parties, and we already have it implemented (maybe not enough, but we're getting there)
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[12:38:01] <Manis> SCTs kind of try to solve an unsolvable problem. The CA system works under the assumption that CAs are trustworthy. Once you start to assume that CAs may not be trustworty, the whole systems starts to break apart.
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[12:38:10] <MattJ> Indeed
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[12:38:34] <Manis> Certificate Transparency tries to fix it by keeping a log of signed certificates with some other operator.
[12:38:47] <Manis> So that system only works if you trust the operator of the log.
[12:38:50] <Zash> Trust, but verify
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[12:39:00] <Manis> ?
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[12:39:49] <Zash> Monitor that they remain trustworhy
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[12:40:06] <Manis> Sure, it's better than nothing but CT is not 100%.
[12:40:12] <Zash> > Trust, but verify
Is a saying from sone security person iirc
[12:40:31] <Manis> Because nobody logs the CAA records.
[12:41:27] <Manis> So you have logs but then deciding if all of the entries were rightfully issued will be difficult in retrospect.
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[12:43:03] <Manis> Unless maybe you would also keep a dump of a DNSSEC signed DNS response and had proof that the certificate was indeed requested by the account ID in said CAA record
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[12:43:56] <MattJ> Yeah, ideally the CA could grab the signed response and also add it to the CT log as evidence that they were authorized to issue the cert
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[12:44:09] <MattJ> But I guess we're way off topic now :)
[12:44:19] <MattJ> I'm talking with some CT people, so I'll see what they think
[12:44:28] <Manis> A very interesting topic, though :-)
[12:44:35] <Zash> The whole DNSSEC chain!
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[12:45:37] <Manis> And monitoring DNSSEC changes, too.
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[12:46:03] <Manis> MattJ, keep us updated what the CT people think. I'd be very much interested in learning their POV.
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[12:52:05] <MattJ> I just filed https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/4105
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[14:49:17] <egnun> Hello, ejabberd-ians,
I was just playing around with the STUN/TURN configuration. In this how-to it says
https://www.process-one.net/blog/how-to-set-up-ejabberd-video-voice-calling/
listen:
  ...
    ip: 0.0.0.0
    turn_ip: 0.0.0.0
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[14:49:24] <egnun> What is the difference between those two?
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[14:57:48] <egnun> Also, why are both used there in the TCP listen, but not in the UPD one?
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[15:11:27] <Holger> egnun: First of all, `turn_ip` has been deprecated, there's `turn_ipv4_address` and `turn_ipv6_address` now.
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[15:11:47] <Holger> egnun: It's also used in the `udp` listener (also in that article, no?).
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[15:13:19] <egnun> No, only in the ejabberd.yaml.example. But that one on the other hand only has the udp listener and no tcp listener. 😃️
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[15:14:21] <Holger> egnun: TURN works in an asymmetric way, there's a 'client' that connects to the `ip` and asks the server to open a random UDP port on the `turn_ipv4_address`, which the 'peer' then connects to.
[15:14:42] <Holger> egnun: I tried to explain this here: https://eturnal.net/doc/protocol.html#turn
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[15:16:06] <Holger> From that page: `CLIENT <--link (1)--> SERVER <--link (2)--> PEER`.  The `ip` is about the server-side of link (1), the `turn_ipv4_address` about the server-side of link (2).
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[15:20:40] <egnun> I see. So technically "ip:" should be used for both listeners.
[15:21:02] <egnun> > TURN works in an asymmetric way, …
Thanks for the explanation, Holger!
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[15:22:49] <Holger> > So technically "ip:" should be used for both listeners.
Oh right, I was looking at `turn_ip`.  Yes it makes no sense that `ip` is only specified for one of them, that's an oversight.
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[15:23:13] <Holger> And a `tcp` listener doesn't help much in practice anyway, just using `udp` is good enough.
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[15:24:40] <Holger> (Clients will prefer `udp` in order to minimize latency.  The point of `tcp` would be to have a fallback for environments where `udp` is filtered, or something.)
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[19:23:11] <egnun> I see. But I should probably also comment out the TCP part in mod_stun_disco?
[19:23:21] <egnun> *But then I…
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