Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Tuesday, December 19, 2023< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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[09:59:04] <Manis> A user on my server uses a network which seems to block all non-HTTP requests, so I enabled BOSH and WebSockets on my server. Is there a way to test if it is working correctly?
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[10:08:01] <Holger> Manis: Just try a web client such as Converse.js?
[10:08:18] <Kris> You can visit the uri in the browser and it should show a working message
[10:09:14] <Holger> Manis: The common solution is to offer XMPPS (i.e. with direct TLS) on port 443 though.  That way things will usually also work for mobile/desktop clients.  BOSH/WebSocket is usually only supported by browser clients.
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[10:11:33] <Manis> Kris, yes, I have the working message but it is just plain HTTP. It does not mean that the WebSockets proxy also works, or does it?
[10:12:08] <Manis> Offering XMPPS on 443 is not an option in this case because I also have a web server running on the same port and only one IP address available,
[10:12:10] <Manis> Offering XMPPS on 443 is not an option in this case because I also have a web server running on the same port and only one IP address available.
[10:12:38] <Manis> I was hoping that Conversations also supports WebSockets :-/
[10:12:46] <Holger> You can usually use ALPN to multiplex the traffic.
[10:12:56] <Holger> > I was hoping that Conversations also supports WebSockets :-/
No.
[10:12:57] <Kris> You can reverse proxy it or otherwise you need to configure it to use the SSL certs in the ejabberd config
[10:13:36] <Holger> Manis: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages/XEP-0368#Transparent_Proxying
[10:13:42] <Holger> Manis: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages/XEP-0368
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[10:20:58] <Licaon_Kter> `sslh` works great yeah, in theory `nginx` should too... (I never managed to setup it for that, see my oooold notes here: https://gist.github.com/licaon-kter/54d4656cc753b98e1dc0d81a59a73faa ) Manis
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[10:22:35] <Holger> Licaon_Kter: oh, I've seen Nginx working.
[10:23:46] <Holger> TURNS@443 is a PITA (as clients didn't do ALPN last time I checked).
[10:24:09] <Holger> (But SNI works.)
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[10:27:04] <Manis> Hmm, I wonder why we invented L3 ports when everything is now using port 443 and we do protocol multiplexing on L4 now 🤦️
[10:27:55] <Manis> So to summarize I'd have to set up sslh on port 443, and have it redirect xmpp and https to the respective port of my web server and ejabberd.
[10:28:11] <Zash> Yay more responsibilities for OpenSSL
[10:29:53] <Manis> Or if like, idk, IPv6 ever caught on after almost 30 years.
[10:30:23] <Manis> I cannot help but feel that the whole technology stack which is used everywhere gets hacked worse and worse every year.
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[10:30:59] <Manis> As if the people who designed the old stack which served us well for years were morons.
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[10:32:04] <Licaon_Kter> Holger:
> oh, I've seen Nginx working.
Do share a gist or smth
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[10:34:59] <Manis> Licaon_Kter, do you know of a magic sslh option I have not found yet to make it add X-Forwaded-... headers?
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[10:41:44] <rom1dep> > As if the people who designed the old stack which served us well for years were morons.
More like "everyone but them" are (restrictive firewalls blocking all but web ports, corporate MITM tricks, spoofing DNSes, GFW, ...).
I'm still getting a majority of incoming connections on standard ports, but happy with sslh having my back the rest of the time
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[10:42:14] <Holger> Yes it's all borked.
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[10:42:56] <Holger> SRV lookups only working _most_ of the time is another major annoyance.
[10:43:00] <Licaon_Kter> Manis: no...dunno....
[10:43:30] <Licaon_Kter> You want transparent proxy I guess... something trickier
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[10:45:01] <Manis> Hmm, transparent mode looks like what I want but I'm wondering if it works with nftables.
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[10:47:19] <raver> Licaon_Kter: sss123next is even more brave:
https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/4123#issuecomment-1862513901
[10:47:23] <raver> I'll check now🙂
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[10:48:00] <Holger> Manis, Nginx and ejabberd support the HAproxy protocol which hands over client IP addresses.
[10:48:08] <Kris> https://github.com/yrutschle/sslh
[10:48:34] <Kris> Would be another option to multiplex http and xmpp on the same port.
[10:49:25] <Manis> Yes, sslh is what I'm looking at currently.
[10:49:41] <Manis> It looks like just what I need. Simple little C utility. Does one thing and does it well.
[10:49:58] <Holger> Except HAproxy 🙂
[10:50:10] <Holger> (And sclalibility.)
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[10:50:46] <Holger> So TBH I'm not sure it really does the one thing _that_ well but it's good enough for small setups and I like it too 🙂
[10:51:45] <Licaon_Kter> raver: it's their turn now :))
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[10:58:29] <Manis> Why is Debian's sslh version so old.
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[11:00:18] <Holger> Manis, seems Debian has v1.22c, next release is v2.0 from August this year, no?
[11:00:53] <Holger> Ok 1.22c isn't in stable/backports.
[11:01:01] <Manis> Holger, stable only has 1.20 from 2018.
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[11:01:15] <Manis> And stable was only released this summer.
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[11:10:04] <Licaon_Kter> Manis: compile from source this `Simple little C utility. Does one thing and does it well.`
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[11:11:34] <Licaon_Kter> also https://github.com/yrutschle/sslh/issues/416
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[11:14:12] <Manis> Compiling from source went well?
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[11:14:24] <Manis> Also checked Gentoo's ebuild and it looks pretty sane
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[11:17:02] <Manis> What's the thing with #416?
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[11:51:01] <raver> Licaon_Kter,
hmm slixmpp still seems to have still problems:
```
DEBUG: 2023-12-19 12:44:21,325: SEND: <auth xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl" mechanism="SCRAM-SHA-1-PLUS">XXXXXXXXXXXXXX</auth>
DEBUG: 2023-12-19 12:44:21,355: RECV: <failure xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl"><not-authorized /><text xml:lang="en">Invalid channel binding</text></failure>
```
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[11:53:05] <prefiks> raver: would be you able to capture whole traffic from start, and sends that to me? so i could see what is issue there
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[11:54:19] <prefiks> ah, you are using some kind of proxy for communication?
[11:54:37] <prefiks> then -PLUS methods will fail like that
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[11:55:07] <prefiks> they are there to detect mitm, which proxy essentially does
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[12:22:16] <raver> I see, I'll try SCRAM-SHA-1 then
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[12:25:00] <raver> hmm same result:
```
DEBUG: 2023-12-19 13:23:01,822: SEND: <auth xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl" mechanism="SCRAM-SHA-1">XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX</auth>
DEBUG: 2023-12-19 13:23:01,892: RECV: <challenge xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl">XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX</challenge>
DEBUG: 2023-12-19 13:23:02,024: SEND: <response xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl">XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX</response>
DEBUG: 2023-12-19 13:23:02,049: RECV: <failure xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl"><not-authorized /><text xml:lang="en">Invalid channel binding</text></failure>
```
[12:25:59] <prefiks> Could you show me those XXX in response?
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[12:58:49] <Manis> rintinfinn, ACK.
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[13:24:35] <Manis> So I set up sslh and it seems to work if I set the server port to 443 manually.
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[13:25:44] <Manis> But I'm unsure about which port to redirect to: 5222 or 5223.
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[13:26:05] <Manis> Is STARTTLS used by XMPP clients when going through port 443?
[13:26:10] <Licaon_Kter> Update your DNS SRVs, add entry for 443 with different weight/prie
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[13:26:15] <Licaon_Kter> Update your DNS SRVs, add entry for 443 with different weight/prio
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[13:27:47] <Manis> Yes I have. I guessed _xmpps-client._tcp so clients should use direct TLS?
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[13:27:53] <Holger> Manis, yes usually you'd add an `xmpps-client_` (note the `s`!) entry for 443, i.e. without STARTTLS, i.e. the thing you're probably offering on 5223.
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[13:27:58] <Manis> Which would mean redirect to port 5223?
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[13:29:00] <Holger> Manis, right.  That makes it harder for restrictive firewalls to classify this as non-HTTPS traffic.
[13:29:28] <Manis> Well unless they parse the ALPN protocol header.
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[13:29:40] <Manis> But it looks like HTTPS in the sense that there is no STARTTLS.
[13:29:41] <Holger> Was going to mention that just now 🙂
[13:29:50] <Manis> :-)
[13:30:05] <Holger> But seems in practice they don't do that yet, so that's the current state of our cat-and-mice game.
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[13:30:44] <Manis> Yeah I never know whether to play with it or just let broken networks be broken networks and let users feel it...
[13:30:48] <Holger> (And isn't ALPN encrypted 'now', to bring us to the next level of the game?  I forgot.)
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[13:31:16] <Manis> TBH I forgot that ALPN exists before you guys brought it back into my head a few hours ago ;-)
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[13:32:28] <Holger> Manis, I think Zash keeps arguing for the latter, but I just whine about how terrible everything is and continue playing the game.  Since the users who'd feel the breakage aren't really the group of people who'd be in charge of fixing it.
[13:32:43] <Holger> (Rather than fixing anything they'd just revert to WhatsApp.)
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[13:34:00] <Manis> It would make more sense to set up a VPN for such networks and let the services be properly configured.
[13:34:22] <Manis> But generally the IT competence of users is very very near 0 so that's not going to happen.
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[13:37:29] <Holger> Personally I'm fine with users lacking such competence.  I'm just annoyed by those who implement broken setups.  (And presumably part of the explanation is borked economic incentives rather than just ignorant network admins/implementors.)
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[13:40:18] <Manis> I don't think there's one correct answer.
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[13:40:37] <Manis> But the IT competence of users will need to increase IMO. IT self-defense has become more important than ever.
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[13:45:18] <Zash> Holger: You're saying I should give up and swith to WhatsApp?!
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[13:48:44] <Holger> Zash, er, nooo, wait!!
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[13:58:20] <Manis> Zash, the question was on whether XMPP server operators should implement techniques to circumvent blocking inside certain networks.
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[14:38:44] <Zash> I believe those kinds of measures will only expand unless we resist, otherwise more and more networks may block ecerything but http because only http is used because everythibg else is blocked. So I try to tell people to at least try to bother their network admin before handing put everything on 443 instructions
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[15:52:20] <Manis> Zash, I agree with what you say. It's a cat and mouse game perverting technology with every further step. Once everything is on 443 the admins will notice that the ransomware they acquired is also using 443 and will buy more expensive firewalling gear to introspect TLS traffic. This will make us invent new hacks to get around their newer firewall which will make them go one step further.
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[15:53:18] <Manis> While on our side providing a sensible service is becoming harder and harder, because we need 7 proxies hacking and dissecting different protocols apart on port 443.
[15:53:21] <Zash> Enjoy the mandatory MITM certificate your employer will require that you install so they can inspect your traffic. (Already a thing for ENTERPRISE employees)
[15:53:31] <Manis> I know.
[15:53:40] <Manis> But I don't run my XMPP on their machines.
[15:54:04] <savagepeanut> Switch to matrix for native http ;p
[15:54:17] <savagepeanut> Long polling is the future!
[15:54:38] <Zash> We've had BOSH forever tho
[15:54:53] <Zash> Matrix is just MAM over BOSH!!1/s
[15:54:54] <Manis> But if I had to predict the future: OS vendors will disallow the modification of the CA root making it worse for everybody because then you cannot do anything against rogue CAs or to keep old devices alive.
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[15:55:47] <Manis> The problem I'm seeing more often than enterprise MITM are guest networks of various sorts. And I can understand the network admins. People expect guest networks but don't want to pay anything for it so you're trying to make people happy while investing as little time as possible.
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[15:56:16] <Manis> As I wrote before: VPNs should be mandatory for the use of guest networks ;-)
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[15:56:42] <Zash> A thought I had: XMPP over VPN
[15:57:12] <Zash> And ENTERPRISE use VPNs, so they won't block those! :D
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[15:57:34] <Manis> Enterprises use IPSec, but I use OpenVPN :-(
[15:57:54] <Manis> You can run OpenVPN over 443, though. But VPN over TCP sucks.
[15:57:58] <zoidberg> Softether has some stealth features
[15:58:20] <Zash> Manis, but HTTP/3 uses UDP, sooooooo
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[15:58:31] <Manis> ugh, h3...
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[15:58:36] <Manis> But damn, yes 😀
[15:58:41] <Manis> I may start to like QUIC.
[15:58:44] <Zash> OpenVPN on UDP/443, http<=2 on TCP/443 🤷️
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[15:59:01] <Manis> 🤔️
[15:59:50] <Manis> Or OpenVPN on 53/udp. Cannot block DNS, can you?
[16:00:33] <Zash> Redirecting everything on 53/udp to a local resolver is a thing
[16:00:37] <Manis> And for the very restricted networks, iodine?
[16:00:52] <Manis> > Redirecting everything on 53/udp to a local resolver is a thing
*sigh3
[16:00:53] <Manis> > Redirecting everything on 53/udp to a local resolver is a thing
*sigh*
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[16:01:05] <Zash> Yeah
[16:01:22] <savagepeanut> DNS over HTT- shoot
[16:01:54] <Zash> did you just say iodine over DoH? go sit in the corner of shame .P
[16:02:34] <Manis> Is DoH dead yet?
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[16:03:27] <savagepeanut> No, and Firefox has it enabled by default in some cases
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[16:03:47] <Manis> ah perfect.
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[16:04:04] <Manis> I never understood the point being DoX.
[16:04:10] <savagepeanut> DNS + TLS seems dead though
[16:04:28] <Manis> DoT is dead?
[16:04:33] <Zash> I hear DNS itself is dead, replaced by HTTP+JSON. 😭️
[16:04:37] <Manis> The saner of the two died? Perfect.
[16:04:45] <Manis> Zash, what??
[16:04:59] <Zash> Not really, but uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh.
[16:06:21] <savagepeanut> Well you can still use it, I mostly meant in the hard to measure public opinion sense
[16:06:52] <Manis> I'm still waiting for the day when I can enable DNSSEC verification in my resolver.
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[16:09:16] <savagepeanut> I'm trying to enable dual stack ipv6, but I think I just confirmed that my ISP still does not support it
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[16:09:37] <Manis> Mine neither, savagepeanut.
[16:09:52] <savagepeanut> 😮‍💨
[16:09:54] <Manis> It really pisses me off TBH.
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[16:10:19] <savagepeanut> Doesn't all this ipv4 cost them money?
[16:10:29] <Manis> So much that I started researching into ways of acquiring an ASN which I can tunnel to my router.
[16:11:19] <savagepeanut> Hmm
[16:11:22] <Manis> savagepeanut: uhm no only the membership AFAIK which is a fixed fee. They bought the address space a long time ago when it was cheap.
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[16:12:08] <savagepeanut> So the landowners of the net
[16:12:44] <Manis> Yeah.
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[16:13:00] <Manis> Whenever there is a finite resource where ownership doesn't cost you money...
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[16:15:36] <Manis> What I don't understand is that when ISPs run out of IPv4, they rather enable CGN than to enable IPv6...
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[16:30:58] <Zash> No sensible reasons anymore. At some point, maybe the need to replace *all* the switches and gateways etc with IPv6-capable one, but I doubt you can buy such things without IPv6 support anymore.
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[16:33:28] <deimos> hilariously/sadly, hurricane electric still offers free ipv6 tunnel broker for those on ipv4-only ISPs, https://tunnelbroker.net/
[16:34:43] <deimos> they even have a v4 Exhaustion widget on their site
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[16:35:57] <Zash> I emailed my ISP to point out that https://www.worldipv6launch.org/ was a decade ago, wondering WTF??
[16:36:28] <savagepeanut> Wow, you can get a whole /64 block from hurricane electric
[16:36:36] <savagepeanut> Handing them out like candy
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[16:37:02] <Zash> Only one? Rookie numbers
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[16:37:29] <savagepeanut> >https://www.worldipv6launch.org/
Hey I see my ISP on there (:
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[16:39:54] <zoidberg> You guys are saying that you still dont have IPV6 or i am understanding it wrong?
[16:40:05] <Licaon_Kter> Yes...
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[16:40:17] <zoidberg> Yes = i am wrong?
[16:40:27] <Licaon_Kter> The future is already here, but not equally distributed or some $hit
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[16:40:49] <Licaon_Kter> Way to ask 2 questions in one, that'll tuach you
[16:40:55] <Licaon_Kter> Way to ask 2 questions in one, that'll teach you
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[16:41:12] <zoidberg> 😂
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[16:42:37] <deimos> I understand them to be saying they do not have the glory of IPv6 and are confined to the 10th circle of hell in IPv4-only.
[16:43:05] <deimos> I have a /64 from my ISP, I use about 20 addresses from it.
[16:44:01] <savagepeanut> I only feel safe with NAT ;)
[16:44:26] <zoidberg> Its been idk like 6 years with IPV6 working.
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[16:50:12] <Manis> he.net's tunnel broker is my entry to IPv6 _to this day_.
[16:50:24] <Manis> And you receive a /48 + a /64 for free.
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[16:54:06] <deimos> > I only feel safe with NAT ;)
my firewall mediates access to the billions and billions of potential ipv6 addresses I could have with all my billions of IoT devices and whatever else needs ipv6
[16:55:02] <zoidberg> Stop torturing the man. 🙂
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[16:56:09] <zoidberg> Hey internet is internet IPV4, IPV6 it doesnt matter.
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[17:01:31] <Manis> zoidberg: it starts to matter when you want to run servers.
[17:02:16] <deimos> back on topic, is there a good gui for managing everything about ejabberd (xmpp, mqtt, and sip)?
[17:03:04] <Manis> ejabberd has a HTML interface. But I don't think it does "everything".
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[17:08:01] <Licaon_Kter> deimos: I heard the best UI is macOS with iTerm
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[17:08:39] <Manis> LOL
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[17:18:07] <deimos> too bad for me then, I run freebsd and arch
[17:18:46] <deimos> i have a jr admin who struggles with the command line, that's why I ask
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[17:45:57] <savagepeanut> Maybe I was too quick to shame my ISP. It took hours, even after unplugging the modem, but I eventually got assigned an ipv6 🎉
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[17:50:54] <Manis> savagepeanut, how large?
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[17:51:17] <savagepeanut> /56
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[17:52:13] <Zash> We have a thing where multiple ISPs can sell services but the network is operated by someone else, who in my case must have bought the last IPv4-only switches available.
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[17:53:20] <Manis> Zash, I don't think it's a hardware issue.
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[17:53:46] <Manis> It's probably an "investment into reconfiguration of the network" issue.
[17:54:06] <Manis> "Can we charge the customer more if we offer IPv6?" - "No? Fine, let it be as it is."
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[17:54:45] <Manis> As if this expensive gear couldn't support what consumer devices did for the last 20 years.
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[17:55:06] <Zash> I have a vague memory of them saying it's a hardware issue.
[17:55:20] <Manis> o.O
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[17:55:37] <Zash> Or maybe an ISP said this? (I used to work at an ISP, but looooooooooooooooong ago)
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[18:36:12] <deimos> > We have a thing where multiple ISPs can sell services but the network is operated by someone else, who in my case must have bought the last IPv4-only switches available.
I'm assuming you're in a sane country in Scandinavia.
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[18:46:31] <Zash> Did you know that Sweden has very low IPv6 coverage? 😭️
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[18:49:13] <deimos> it was nice to move to stockholm and get a question of which provider did i want for my 1 gbps symmetric fiber line to the flat
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[19:14:46] <raver> deimos: I have to move to Stockholm
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[19:47:13] <Kris> Does the ejabberd rest api have some sort of return channel or is it one way only?
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[19:58:46] <Holger> Kris: It's query-response in the sense that you should receive a return value for your request, but I guess that's not what you're after?
[19:59:16] <Zash> If you do an iq-disco#info to a remote entity, does it wait and return the iq response?
[20:00:06] <Kris> Holger: indeed no, I was thinking of outvoting webhooks or so that are triggered by something happening xmpp side
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[20:00:17] <Kris> Holger: indeed no, I was thinking of outgoting webhooks or so that are triggered by something happening xmpp side
[20:00:23] <Kris> Holger: indeed no, I was thinking of outgoing webhooks or so that are triggered by something happening xmpp side
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[20:01:05] <Holger> Zash: From the top of my head there's no dedicated IQ call, just a generic `send_stanza` which blindly fires and forgets.   But would be trivial to add.
[20:01:23] <Kris> I have a program that speaks Twilio api and are wondering how hard it would be to divert those "SMS" to xmpp chats.
[20:01:28] <Holger> Kris: Ah no that's not built in.
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