Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Monday, May 20, 2024< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
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[07:18:17] <prefiks> Daniel: yes they are deleted unconditionally
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[07:21:39] <Daniel> I'm aware that this is what the XEP says and I can't tell you what an alternative solution would look like but that doesn't seem ideal
[07:22:23] <prefiks> yes, a bit sketchy if you think about it
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[07:41:43] <Holger> Esp. as long as we don't have MAM sync atomicity.
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[07:55:13] <kapad> » [13:10:13] <Licaon_Kter> leke: depends on server
what you mean ?
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[08:11:24] <Licaon_Kter> kapad: I think I misremembered this being merged https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2546 but reversed
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[08:17:37] <kapad> Licaon_Kter: ok, thanks... ! I just have a 'modify error' in a muc, that meake no sense, so...
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[08:20:10] <kapad> Licaon_Kter: the global `acl` and `access` rules are merged in append_host, if not touched/define at in a host_config. right ?
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[08:20:28] <kapad> Licaon_Kter: the global `acl` and `access` rules are merged in append_host, if not touched/define at all in a host_config. right ?
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[08:35:19] <kapad> https://ua3.anondns.net/im/p/71a3f3/a024/error-modify-config-anon.txt | i have this config and this error, if someone can take a look
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[08:37:42] <kapad> my user `admin@local.tld` is the admin of the server, and also the creator and the owner of that `room@muc.server.tld` room... using client to change config shows this error.
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[10:18:59] <marc0s> hi, is there any writeup (couldn't find any) on push notifications for MUC? I'd like to have users notified of messages sent to the rooms they're registered on while not actually present on the rooms. Is this somehow supported? Thanks!
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[11:49:08] <lovetox> hi, i found an ejabberd server that provides a MUC and adds occupant-id, but if you send a private message via this MUC, it does not add the occupant-id.
I would expect it to add it also to PMs.
Could someone confirm that this is still an issue in the current development version? If yes i would create a issue for it
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[13:59:14] <admin> https://bgzashtita.es/upload/c02f8c31a6bc9c7670684bc0fd99318c8849a2d5/9EuxK4aQVYM0eijllDKgaUNQpa2kgzNf9Bdviokd/2ly1boI7S7Cy2rC08AW1Yg.jpg
[14:00:09] <admin> Hi is this normal ? Shaper rules to unknown user.... I followed Ubuntu manual then why it still show unknown usee
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[14:51:46] <Holger> admin: You have `shaper_rules:` called `proxyrate` that refer to a non-existent `shaper:` called `proxy_users`.
For an explanation and examples, see:
https://docs.ejabberd.im/admin/configuration/toplevel/#shaper
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[14:52:33] <Holger> … and the following `shaper_rules` section.
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[14:54:40] <marc0s> > hi, is there any writeup (couldn't find any) on push notifications for MUC? I'd like to have users notified of messages sent to the rooms they're registered on while not actually present on the rooms. Is this somehow supported? Thanks!
I was now reading about MucSub... Is that the expected way to handle MUC messages to offline users?
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[15:32:14] <Holger> marc0s: There's no general consensus so far.  MUC/Sub is ProcessOne's non-standard solution.  MIX is another.  Then there's plans to standardize a simpler "MUC 2.0".
What standard clients do so far is relying on the server to keep an XEP-0198 session open for push clients (which is what `mod_push_keepalive` does).
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[15:32:54] <Holger> marc0s: If you're looking for a topic to bash XMPP, "push notifications for group chats" might be a good candidate 😃
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[15:35:09] <marc0s> 😂
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[15:38:43] <MattJ> Don't forget the Tigase extension (which Siskin/Prosody/Snikket uses)
[15:38:54] <Holger> Yes, everyone has his own.
[15:38:56] <MattJ> So the problem isn't that it's not possible, just that there isn't yet a blessed way
[15:39:22] <MattJ> Push 2.0 is gradually getting there
[15:39:30] <MattJ> as well as MUC 2.0
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[15:49:19] <leke> Can message storage time only be set uniformly on the server now? Can I set a storage time for a single room separately?
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[15:54:58] <flow> it seems that ejabberd does not implement the MUC "locking" mechanism (xep45 § 7.2.10) and I remember that there was a discussion around this a long time ago. Or am I wrong?
[15:55:11] <Kris> MattJ: is there some repo or so where one can follow the progress on muc2.0?
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[15:57:57] <MattJ> Kris, https://pad.nixnet.services/s/7xKNOKxxE
[15:58:06] <Kris> Thx
[16:00:41] <Holger> leke: With `ejabberdctl` you can only expire messages for group chat vs. 1:1 separately, or per-domain if you use `delete_old_mam_messages_batch`.  For anything more complex you'd remove messages directly from the `archive` table (the `timestamp` column is the number of microseconds since 1970-01-01).
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[16:16:10] <Licaon_Kter> MattJ: are you inventing, reinventing or finishing MUX?
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[16:17:03] <MattJ> Licaon_Kter, trying to fill the gap between MUC (a bunch of legacy cruft) and MIX (an entirely different protocol)
[16:17:51] <MattJ> Modern MUC can do 99% of everything MIX can do, but it's just not written down in one place (a lot of it isn't written down anywhere)
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[16:18:56] <MattJ> So it's mostly just about writing it down in one place, and also excluding the legacy stuff nobody wants
[16:19:07] <Licaon_Kter> Oh
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[16:20:07] <MattJ> So the goal is that any existing MUC implementation can relatively easily support MUX (while remaining backwards-compatible with MUC-only implementations for as long as that is desired)
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[16:21:12] <MattJ> And although it's not my primary goal, I'm assuming that a side-effect will also be easier bridges between MU[CX] and MIX if we still decide we want MIX in the end
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[16:27:12] <Licaon_Kter> After so much time is MIX oven on devs todos?
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[16:41:55] <MattJ> Licaon_Kter, it was kinda always on mine, but only on the condition that it was implemented in a way that's backwards-compatible with MUC. And although I attempted it twice, it was just too much effort for too little gain. And it still has unsolved issues. So I'm hoping MUX can be a slightly less ambitious step forward that still gets us practically everything people are actually interested in.
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[16:42:34] <Licaon_Kter> After so much time is MIX even on devs todos?
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[16:42:51] <Licaon_Kter> 👍
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[16:43:16] <Licaon_Kter> Anyway, where''s Snikket 2.16? :))
[16:44:06] <MattJ> :)
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[16:45:20] <Holger> lovetox: From a quick look at the code, PMs should have occupant IDs.  Will try to reproduce later (you could use messaging.one if you'd like to test the current code yourself).
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[16:47:37] <Holger> MattJ: There's XEP-0408 for MUC/MIX compat, no?  But ejabberd doesn't support it, no idea how hard it would be in practice.
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[16:48:25] <Holger> (I seem to remember Tigase supports it?)
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[16:49:17] <MattJ> Tigase is the only implementation I know which does MUC+MIX, and my confidence that following the XEPs is enough to be interoperable is quite low
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[16:51:15] <Holger> So would be mine, but _if_ things actually work well using Tigase that would seem like a PoC that it's _possible_ at least :-)
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[16:51:16] <MattJ> XEP-0408 was written without any implementations, and I don't think it was updated after Tigase. I strongly suspect it to be incomplete, therefore, when it comes to actually implementing this stuff. It basically just tells you how to disco.
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[16:51:51] <MattJ> Sure, I don't think it's it's necessarily "impossible"
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[16:52:08] <Holger> Well disco might be the only thing to standardize here :-)
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[16:52:32] <MattJ> Highly unlikely :)
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[16:52:49] <MattJ> E.g. what about sync of affiliations, and stuff like that? How do you handle MUC config?
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[16:53:12] <MattJ> None of that is specified, as far as I know
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[16:54:28] <Holger> I dunno, MUC 2.0 was exactly my thoughts back when I first heard about MIX.  Just think it's a bit unfortunate that we roll back years later, after quite some energy went into spec'ing MIX, and some into implementing it.
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[16:55:21] <MattJ> MIX today is only usable in closed environments, really, because little thought was given to an upgrade path for the existing MUC-based ecosystem
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[16:56:06] <MattJ> After this long I would rather spend time on something that is a relatively small update for existing MUC implementations that gets us what we need, instead of waiting for the magical MIX that isn't coming
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[16:57:25] <lovetox> Holger, i just tested on messaging.one, and it does not add the occupant-id to the pm
[16:59:09] <Holger> MattJ: As MUC and MIX could be offered in parallel I wouldn't quite agree with MIX only be usable in closed environments, new MIX rooms could be created without ditching old MUC rooms.
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[17:00:00] <lovetox> Holger, i think its not setup on the server, could this be? it does also not add it in MUCs
[17:00:18] <MattJ> Right, but if you create a MIX room and 9 of the 10 people you want to invite only support MUC, what good is it?
[17:00:48] <MattJ> And of those people, some will have MUC-only clients alongside MIX-capable clients
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[17:01:27] <Holger> MattJ: Yes, new features require client support.  But I think if Daniel merged his MIX branch the numbers might quickly look better than 1 out of 10.
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[17:01:54] <MattJ> Don't forget that MIX requires support from participant servers too
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[17:02:15] <MattJ> It was not designed with easy adoption in mind 🙂
[17:02:52] <MattJ> So if I install Daniel's MIX branch I still can't join your MIX room from most servers
[17:03:19] <Holger> I'm not trying to argue the opposite when I'm disagreeing with "unusable" conclusions.
[17:03:38] <Holger> It's about as "unusable" as OMEMO was.
[17:05:07] <MattJ> Not at all. OMEMO depends on existing protocols (PEP) on the server, it is easy to detect that someone supports OMEMO and start using it.
[17:05:25] <MattJ> Or do something else if they don't
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[17:06:15] <Holger> So what do I do when inviting a non-OMEMO user to an OMEMO group?  Or when using MCabber + Conversations?
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[17:06:26] <zoidberg> > It's about as "unusable" as OMEMO was.
OMEMO? Unusable ? How dare you[Greta pic]
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[17:06:54] <MattJ> At least in that case they can use a different client. With MIX they have to use a different client and a different server 🙂
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[17:07:04] <lovetox> i mean without backwards compatibility i think this would be clusterfuck, but is there an inherent problem why a MUC server can not offer both protocols on the same room jid?
[17:07:13] <MattJ> And then prey their s2s doesn't go down (so they don't lose any messages)
[17:07:40] <MattJ> lovetox: in theory no (originally it was definitely impossible but they fixed the main issue)
[17:08:00] <MattJ> But in practice it's not trivial to treat them as two protocols on top of the same data
[17:08:08] <MattJ> Not impossible, but very hard
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[17:08:39] <lovetox> that i my mind is the most important point, i think groupchat functionality is nothing were we should break anything for user
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[17:08:44] <MattJ> And I (this is personal) don't think that effort is worth it for the supposed gains that MIX brings and the concrete unsolved problems it still has
[17:08:50] <lovetox> this is *the* core feature of any messenger
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[17:09:21] <Holger> lovetox: Oh right it's a separate module (Prosody-style!), sorry I'll enable it later.
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[17:10:03] <Holger> lovetox:
> that i my mind is the most important point, i think groupchat functionality is nothing were we should break anything for user
FTR I'm in no way arguing we should.
[17:11:17] <Kris> MattJ: in how far does your muc2.0 draft take consideration on MLS requirements?
[17:11:21] <lovetox> i think i know what you feel, it always hurts a bit to throw something away where many people worked on it, and it need to be serious questioned reasons, and not just NIH syndrom
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[17:13:10] <Holger> lovetox: Yeah and it's not my personal thing, I did almost no work on MIX myself so it's not like *I* wasted my time.
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[17:23:34] <MattJ> Kris: not at all. My belief (from talking with MLS folk) is that we already have practically everything we need
[17:23:56] <Holger> lovetox: Occupant IDs should work now.
[17:23:56] <MattJ> If we are missing anything it's easy enough to add, thanks to eXtensibility
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[17:24:41] <Kris> Hmm, muc2.0 seems to go in the right direction, but I think MLS has some strict requirements on a consistent membership state.
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[17:25:15] <MattJ> And what is not consistent?
[17:25:52] <Kris> In muc 1.0 changing devices are often a problem with omemo
[17:26:22] <lovetox> Holger, thanks, works and also the occupant id is added to PMs
[17:27:06] <MattJ> Kris: ah, that's kinda separate to group chat membership
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[17:27:43] <MattJ> But MUX eliminates the weirdness that MUC has of trying to pretend multiple devices are one device
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[17:27:57] <Holger> lovetox: Do you know the ejabberd version of the server that fails to add them to PMs?
[17:28:08] <MattJ> But I don't think that has any positive or negative effect on OMEMO
[17:28:23] <Kris> I am not deep enought into the topic of MLS, but I remember that the issue of consistent group membership was stressed quite a bit for MLS and vital to make e2ee scalable to larger groups.
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[17:29:14] <MattJ> Are you thinking of Matrix? :) (which struggles with that)
[17:29:32] <MattJ> XMPP always has membership consistency, even in legacy MUC
[17:29:59] <Kris> Matrix seems to have run into some sort of dead end with their MLS implementation
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[17:30:38] <Kris> I am referring to the MLS presentation on the last CCC congress, that was protocol agnostic
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[17:31:17] <Kris> I would just like to avoid muc2.0 running into avoidable issues with MLS 😅
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[17:34:04] <lovetox> Holger, i just disovered its not an ejabberd server, and also i cannot reproduce it anymore, sorry for the noise
[17:34:16] <Holger> Heh, np.
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[17:34:45] <MattJ> I'm not aware of MUC having any issues with MLS, so I would be very surprised if we managed to make it worse 😄
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[19:09:57] <Kris> might be usable to make a Tor module for Ejabberd: https://codeberg.org/funion/funion
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[20:16:39] <Licaon_Kter> Kris: to s2s w/ .onion ?
[20:17:16] <Kris> like that Prosody module I guess
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[20:19:46] <Licaon_Kter> Holger:
> Oh right it's a separate module (Prosody-style!), sorry I'll enable it later.
Which?
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[21:13:59] <Holger> Licaon_Kter: mod_muc_occupantid
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[21:18:36] <Licaon_Kter> Ah, right
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