ejabberd - Sunday, July 28, 2024

[08:06:29] <skraw> Is there a way for an XMPP-client to modify the lifetime of its messages, just like on an email server where a client can delete messages older than a month (just as an example)?

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[08:09:20] <zoidberg> I think some clients have this feature
[08:09:28] <zoidberg> But its just client side of course

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[08:11:25] <skraw> you mean the delete is local to the client, but the messages stay alive at the server?

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[08:11:58] <zoidberg> Yes

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[08:12:25] <zoidberg> But it would be a nice feature right?
[08:12:34] <Holger> There's some old XEPs but I think nobody is using them, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0023.html and then https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html#conditions-def-expireat ...

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[08:13:59] <Holger> These days you'd probably want to think about how to handle HTTP uploads attached to messages ...

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[08:16:59] <zoidberg> dont ejabberd has a configuration that delete http files from time to time? (i already forgot about that, maybe time to re-check how my server is dealing with this files).
[08:17:22] <Holger> zoidberg, sure, but this cannot be triggered by a client.

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[08:17:32] <skraw> This was in fact a customer question and it sounded quite reasonable to me. Only very few people keep all their old emails archived, so the same idea should be applyable to xmpp messages, not? I do understand that a server function is needed for that, contrary to email, where an imap client can do what he wants, more or less.
[08:17:36] <zoidberg> Ahhh right.

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[08:18:28] <Holger> skraw, most (all?) public XMPP servers delete messages older than n days no matter what, so the situation is a little different from email.
[08:18:31] <Holger> But yes.
[08:18:59] <skraw> how is that configurable in ejabberd?

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[08:20:59] <Holger> You'd have a daily systemd timer or Cronjob call `ejabberdctl delete_old_mam_messages all 90`.
[08:21:23] <Holger> For file uploads, `mod_http_upload_quota` has a `max_days` option.

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[08:22:27] <Holger> The old archiving XEP (0136) supported message deletion, FWIW. The current one (MAM) was meant to be simpler and doesn't support this. A seperate MAM deletion XEP is being discussed every now and then ...

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[08:23:21] <skraw> ah, I see. well in case of not sufficient space this is an option indeed. regarding an option to "forget after x days" for clients it is not, of course. Because requirements for clients will vary dramatically.

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[08:24:55] <skraw> maybe a case for daniel ...

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[08:26:07] <zoidberg> You gonna have to grease some wheels with the whole XMPP organization.
[08:26:28] <zoidberg> I recommend nice hotels, with good whiskey.

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[08:27:09] <Holger> 🙂 Actually you just need someone willing to write and implement such a XEP, client and server-side.

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[08:28:03] <skraw> you need someone with experience in formulating a XEP so that it fits in nicely. And thats probably Daniel ...
[08:28:32] <Holger> Daniel is certainly not the only one writing XEPs 😀
[08:29:10] <skraw> Correct, but it would likely solve the client problem, too 😉
[08:29:32] <Holger> And the server problem?

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[08:30:15] <skraw> ah, probably someone having no fear patching ejabberd would be needed 😂

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[08:30:28] <zoidberg> We are back to good hotels and whiskey.
[08:30:34] <Holger> I think there's little demand from typical Conversations users. They use OMEMO anyway, and 90% of them use only a single device. To those, the server-side archive is mostly useless.

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[08:31:24] <Holger> The remaining 10% use two or more devices. They need the archive for multi-device sync. The requirement is that the server doesn't expire messages before all devices have seen them.
[08:31:45] <skraw> it is not so much a question of useless, I see a question of GDPR lurking around the corner.
[08:32:20] <Holger> I'm not a laywer but I don't think this is a GDPR issue at all.
[08:32:54] <Holger> In practice, the 30-90 day expiry time most servers employ works well for those 10% multi-device users.
[08:33:21] <skraw> If a xmpp user wants you as a server operator to delete all his data it probably is - immediately.
[08:33:23] <Holger> So I think for Conversations users, the situation is very different from typical email usage.

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[08:33:46] <zoidberg> For the big picture, this feature would definitely be a big plus for privacy concerned people. A big plus for XMPP i think.
[08:34:02] <skraw> I agree very much
[08:34:06] <Holger> skraw, you don't need an XMPP extension for that. The server op just needs to react to such a request.

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[08:34:21] <skraw> how?

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[08:34:43] <Holger> skraw, hmm?
[08:34:56] <zoidberg> User ask, you delete?
[08:35:24] <skraw> how do you delete messages from a specified user from a ejabberd server?
[08:35:42] <skraw> are they deleted when the user is deleted?
[08:35:46] <Holger> Ah. There's an `ejabberdctl` command, too lazy to call `help` myself again 😛
[08:35:51] <Holger> skraw, by default, yes.

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[08:36:10] <skraw> ok, so at least not this problem

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[08:37:39] <Holger> And yes I totally agree that this feature would be nice to have. It's just that there's also tons of other features where I'd agree they'd be nice. And I'm not sure this one is at the top of the list of many users. So you might have a hard time convincing people to put their scarce spare time into it.

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[08:38:04] <skraw> but I agree to zoidberg, it would really be a nice feature for people with a "privacy concern", and what is done when wh*ts***" announced that as a feature tommorrow?

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[08:39:28] <skraw> I mean ridiculously it would sound like the better choice for privacy, though we all know everything is kept forever there, only not made available any longer (then)...
[08:39:35] <Holger> What did we do back when they announced other features that actually _are_ interesting to users? Say, WhatsApp status or whatever?
[08:40:12] <Holger> Typically: Nothing, because the manpower is missing 😛

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[08:40:58] <skraw> every day a new man with power is born 👍😇
[08:41:38] <Licaon_Kter> Also there's _"we already had X for years, that works like $SILOFEATURE and nobody cared"_
[08:41:39] <Holger> But those damn parents don't buy him an Erlang book!
[08:42:25] <skraw> I proved none needed 😂

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[08:44:00] <skraw> The simple thing is this, closed source will always loose a race, because most economical entities do not survive multiple generations. this is the true strength of GPL. It is a way to conserve knowledge across an infinite time.
[08:44:40] <zoidberg> hard to impress your parents with look dad i make a server, shows a black screen.
[08:45:10] <Holger> I'd be impressed!
[08:45:23] <zoidberg> 😂
[08:45:33] <skraw> my arts teacher was impressed, in the early 80s

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[08:46:32] <Holger> Back when my son was 5 years old, he understood the fascination of typing characters into MCabber and having them pop up on another MCabber next door!

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[08:46:47] <Holger> Somehow he lost that fascination by now.

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[08:49:36] <zoidberg> broke dad heart when he chose a scooter over a computer.

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[08:52:25] <skraw> I can only tell how this went on my friends son. when he asked me some years ago why his game crashed on w*ndows and what the number on the bluescreen meant I told him he will probably never find out because the data needed is more or less hidden from him. contrary to that if he used linux he will always have some log or be able to create one that tells him all. 4 weeks later he dropped w*ndows and never went back - only for helping others in school with it.

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[08:55:16] <zoidberg> Sounds like a nerd drama movie.
[08:55:37] <zoidberg> I _will_ stop with the jokes now.
[08:55:48] <skraw> I know, but its the simple truth, you may ask him, he is on xmpp (of course) ...

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[08:56:57] <Holger> 🙂 Mine used Linux as his first OS (it's just what I gave him) but now switched to Linux due to school stuff and so on. But was a bit amusing to see how unintuitive the Windows UI was to him, given he was used to Gnome.
[08:57:09] <Holger> 🙂 Mine used Linux as his first OS (it's just what I gave him) but now switched to Windows due to school stuff and so on. But was a bit amusing to see how unintuitive the Windows UI was to him, given he was used to Gnome.

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[09:00:09] <skraw> in the end everything is about control. either someone controls your universe and you are just a controlled piece of it either, or you control your universe (which is some work, but at least it is all yours).

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[09:02:04] <skraw> which brings us back to controlling the lifetime of xmpp messages. from this point of view the question is very understandable.

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[09:03:08] <Holger> Sure, but as soon as there's interaction with others (like exchanging MS Office files or talking to WhatsApp contacts) you obviously need to negotiate control with those others. Or decide not to interact.

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[09:04:26] <skraw> this is democracy. if two people decide to have a short-lived conversation, then there should be platform support for it.

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[09:45:02] <Frank> Did someone say ephemeral messages? Just kidding, will join zoidberg now.

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[11:42:36] <nik> AIUI, mod_matrix_gw only supports 1:1 chats for now, right? Or can it already bridge (unencrypted) rooms as MUC?

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[11:51:38] <Kris> There are conflicting reports on that
[11:51:50] <Kris> And no official documentation.

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[13:08:48] <joeDoe> WHERE are messages kept on the server? I just had a look in /usr and /var and didn't see anything obvious. I did see some sql databases, but those were all last modified in January

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[13:11:38] <Holger> joeDoe, depends on your configuration. If you enabled mod_offline and/or mod_mam, those would store messages in the configured database (Mnesia or SQL).

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[13:20:03] <joeDoe> mod_mam is commented out but mod_offline has the following line under it "access_max_user_messages: max_user_offline_messages". max_user_offline_messages is defined as 5000 for admin and 100 for all, so I guess my system is properly deleting old messages. I don't, however see any jobs in /etc/cron.daily
[13:20:54] <joeDoe> Oh, "or a systemd timer"... I'll check for timers once I figure out how
[13:20:59] <Holger> mod_offline messages are deleted as soon as the user reconnects and retrieves those messages.

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[13:21:46] <Holger> If the user doesn't ever reconnect, their messages aren't deleted (unless you set up some job; or delete the inactive account altogether).

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[13:22:15] <joeDoe> So I need to set up a cron job?

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[13:22:31] <Holger> Depends on what you want 🙂

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[13:22:50] <Holger> Note that you usually want to enable mod_mam for modern clients.

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[13:23:31] <joeDoe> Are there any popular clients that are not modern?
[13:23:31] <Holger> (For (a) multi-device support and (b) even with single-device, MAM makes sure messages are delivered reliably.)

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[13:23:47] <Holger> Not sure how to answer.

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[13:24:05] <Holger> Define "popular" or I dunno.
[13:24:18] <Holger> There's clients in use that don't do MAM. But most clients do.
[13:24:20] <joeDoe> commonly used
[13:24:54] <joeDoe> can you name the ones that don't do MAM?
[13:24:59] <Holger> Conversations/Monal/Gajim/Psi/Converse support MAM.

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[13:25:18] <Holger> Not sure whether Psi ever got MAM support for example.
[13:25:19] <joeDoe> how about poezio and profanity?
[13:25:49] <Holger> Poezio dunno, Profanity has experimental support (but it's really experimental). But those are often run 24/7 I guess.

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[13:27:06] <joeDoe> > Holger> Depends on what you want 🙂
[13:27:25] <joeDoe> that my machine not crash due to insufficient space because of ancient messages :)

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[13:28:40] <joeDoe> where is the mod_offline sql or mnesia database in the fs?

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[13:32:10] <Holger> SQL depends on the SQL engine, Mnesia depends on how you installed ejabberd.

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[13:32:49] <Holger> Distro packages might use /var/lib/ejabberd for Mnesia, upstream packages typically /opt/ejabberd/database.

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[13:36:13] <joeDoe> Ah ha! Thanks. Found it in /var/lib/ejabberd
[13:36:32] <zoidberg> Spark doesn't support MAM
[13:36:34] <zoidberg> but also no OMEMO

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[13:43:28] <joeDoe> Hmm, "systemctl --all list-timers" doesn't show anything for ejabberd and there's nothing in cron.daily. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on disk usage in /var/lib/ejabberd

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[13:55:32] <zoidberg> Or you can create it. And then dont have to worry.

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[14:01:12] <joeDoe> You're right. But, I'm going to wait first and watch. This is a Freedombox. I did very little to configure it. Freedombox sets up most things. There may be a timer/job somewhere that I don't know about. If things keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger I'll assume there isn't one a make one

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[14:32:05] <Kris> > that my machine not crash due to insufficient space because of ancient messages :)
File uploads will be easily multiple times as much as the text storage.
[14:33:05] <Kris> Basically the text storage will be irrelevant even on the tinyests of servers.

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