ejabberd - Tuesday, July 30, 2024

[15:39:08] <Holger> prefiks, as per <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6121#section-8.5.3.2.1>, messages of type "normal" sent to a full JID that's not connected should be dropped. Seems we treat them like type "chat" instead:
https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/blob/24.07/src/ejabberd_sm.erl#L742-L743
[15:39:40] <Holger> prefiks, I fixed that for type "headline" back in 2017 (179e8934cf15) but seems I didn't dare to touch type "normal".

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[15:40:08] <Holger> Looks like nobody ever stumbles over that but I mean ... it's wrong, no? 🙂

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[15:41:33] <Holger> Came across that corner due to a potential use case for the RFC behavior. But apart from that I'd think our behaviour also does things like routing, e.g., MAM responses to unrelated devices of the original recipient lost the connection or whatever?

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[15:42:57] <Holger> (Those messages should be dropped _or_ an error should be bounced.)
[15:43:27] <prefiks> yes i guess it can theoretically (in practice probably not as we do generate those inside c2s process)

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[15:43:59] <prefiks> i will look at that
[15:44:02] <Holger> Was thinking of e.g. MUC MAM responses (possibly from remote servers).
[15:44:14] <Holger> I guess there's other cases, that was just my first random idea.

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[15:45:07] <Holger> Changing that would be trivial of course, but I'd be too afraid of that change without asking 🙂

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[15:49:14] <prefiks> yes, it always can be a problem with changing something like that that was there pretty much forever, i also am not sure if it is used in a wild, and if we will not broke something

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[15:50:31] <Holger> Yup.

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[15:51:41] <Holger> MattJ, you're dropping/bouncing type=normal messages sent to a disconnected full JID as per 6121?

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[15:55:02] <Holger> prefiks,
> i also am not sure if it is used in a wild
Typical/modern IM use cases most probably don't rely on those messages being dropped, 'my' use case is a more IoT-like addressing of individual devices.

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[15:56:01] <MattJ> normal? Isn't normal handled like chat when the resource doesn't exist?

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[15:56:27] <MattJ> Huh
[15:56:28] <Holger> ... where the <message to=account@example.com/lightbulb-1> isn't expected to reach /lightbulb-2 just because the former is offline.
[15:56:42] <Holger> MattJ, if you ask ejabberd's source code, yes!

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[15:57:38] <MattJ> or Prosody's: https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/file/tip/plugins/mod_message.lua#l43
[15:58:22] <MattJ> What's the difference between normal and headline if not this?
[15:58:31] <Holger> Sigh! So I can't walk around and tell everyone "look, the RFC behavior works just fine for Prosody".
[15:58:47] <Holger> MattJ, what's the difference between chat and normal with our code?
[15:59:06] <MattJ> The semantics for end clients, mainly

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[15:59:46] <Holger> So the spec is broken, not the code!

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[16:00:50] <MattJ> So it seems the spec says this is only when addressed to a full JID... if addressed to a bare JID then they are (roughly?) equal

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[16:01:03] <Holger> Right.

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[16:01:57] <MattJ> While Prosody handles messages to a non-existent resource the same way it handles to bare, with the only exception being 'headline'

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[16:03:29] <Holger> Yeah for messages sent to bare, normal<->headline handling is different as per the spec.
[16:03:30] <MattJ> Interestingly this is new in 6121
[16:03:37] <MattJ> But so is the headline behaviour??

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[16:04:40] <MattJ> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3921#section-11 - 11.1, (3) (c)

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[16:05:59] <Holger> Oh, interesting. That explains the code I guess.
[16:06:37] <MattJ> Honestly I think that having (normal|chat) have the current behaviour is more useful than having (normal|headline) act like headline

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[16:07:04] <MattJ> But it sounds like you may have found a use case?

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[16:08:22] <MattJ> I guess normal does have that behaviour with the bare JID, even when following the RFC, and maybe that's enough to satisfy all use cases even in an RFC-compliant world
[16:08:27] <Holger> I may get along with headline.

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[16:10:43] <Holger> But as I said, wouldn't the RFC behavior also make sense for "modern IM", where full-JID-type=normal is usually used for "server/device-to-device" communication?

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[16:11:57] <MattJ> Bypassing MAM/carbons?
[16:12:14] <MattJ> or not?
[16:12:24] <Holger> MAM/Carbons typically don't apply to that traffic I'd think?
[16:12:34] <Holger> As I said e.g. actual MAM responses.
[16:12:37] <MattJ> I would say not, so why not use headline?

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[16:13:14] <Holger> Yes those could be headline just fine I guess, but in practice they _are_ type=normal (as per the implementations, and probably also the XEPs).
[16:13:36] <MattJ> MAM responses? Yeah, they should always have been headline, but I think they are normal
[16:13:45] <MattJ> That's an oversight, not unfixable
[16:14:07] <Holger> Well type=normal would be fine if servers would adhere to 6121 🙂

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[16:14:15] <MattJ> Heh, true

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[16:14:53] <MattJ> But I am pretty sure that this goes beyond server code - I've used type=normal in clients expecting the current (non-RFC) behaviour
[16:15:03] <MattJ> I'm not sure how I overlooked this
[16:15:07] <Holger> So maybe one type is just redundant so you can argue one way or another without making a difference.
[16:16:03] <MattJ> My point is that I don't think this is a simple mistake in Prosody/ejabberd, but I suspect how people may have expected it to work

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[16:16:21] <MattJ> Probably not many people, as not too many people get this far into the weeds of XMPP routing logic

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[16:16:33] <Holger> All that said, if what you want is addressing an account, I'm not sure why you'd address an individual device instead 🙂
[16:16:38] <MattJ> But it seems at least me, and ejabberd devs, and I suspect many people who were familiar with 3921

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[16:18:07] <Holger> > I suspect how people may have expected it to work
I can well imagine you're right. I remember at least Gajim (and Psi?) supporting type=normal back in the days, where users wouldn't expect the 6121 behavior.

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[16:30:13] <MattJ> Holger, note also that Prosody and ejabberd are following 6120 here (but not 6121): https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#rules-local-fulljid
[16:30:26] <Holger> Heh.

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[16:31:05] <MattJ> Seems they conflict, and although 6121 can be presumed to override 6120 here, I think in a future revision we'd be better to drop it and spec what implementations are doing

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[16:32:05] <MattJ> FWIW I just polled 3 other experienced XMPP folk (all current or past council members) and all of them got it wrong too

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[16:32:41] <MattJ> So I think implementations match expectations and we probably shouldn't "fix" it

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[16:34:22] <Holger> I would've won that quiz then! Can't ever remember anything, but for some weird reason I had this behavior in mind and was surprised by the ejabberd code.

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[16:36:19] <Holger> Whatever, I'll survive without touching that behavior.

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