ejabberd - Tuesday, November 26, 2024

[11:18:17] <Kris> And clients with 447 support could be slightly modified to prefer sources from their own server.
[11:18:46] <Kris> Or only auto-preview sourced from their own server.
[11:18:55] <Kris> Or only auto-preview sources from their own server.

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[11:37:50] <Holger> Kris: What's the actual problem with simple HTTP upload that you'd like to see solved?

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[11:39:20] <Holger> Kris: You said "privacy reasons", you mean E2E encryption of the URL?

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[11:39:29] <Kris> Its a privacy issue to have auto-downloads from remote servers.

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[11:40:17] <Kris> It leaks the IPs of chat participants to the server hosting the file

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[11:40:49] <Kris> Most federated systems implement a media proxy to prevent that.
[11:41:17] <Kris> It also helps with bandwith load balancing as a seconday effect
[11:41:33] <Holger> That could be solved much simpler, no? E.g. have your server announce a (possibly built-in) HTTP proxy to the client?

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[11:42:11] <Kris> Why reinvent the wheel when 447 provides that feature already?

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[11:43:09] <Holger> 447 is complex because it provides all sorts of things, which partly I'm not sure what problems that solves.

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[11:43:38] <Kris> It mostly helps with p2p files transfers
[11:43:47] <Holger> HTTP upload was super-successful because it's dead simple.

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[11:44:08] <Kris> But 447 is complex for clients to implement, the server part would be simple.

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[11:44:35] <Holger> Yes. I'm worried about clients not implementing it 🙂
[11:44:50] <Kris> Dino is working on it right now
[11:45:01] <Holger> Sure, they wrote the XEP.
[11:45:01] <Kris> Kaidan and Moxxy already have it

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[11:46:44] <Holger> I'm just asking whether a simpler solution might be able to solve your problem as well while offering better chances to be implemented in e.g. Gajim, Conversations and Monal.

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[11:47:17] <Kris> I am not aware of a simpler solution that is already available as a XEP
[11:48:01] <Holger> I guess their HTTP libs support proxies already, so all they'd need is disco support which sounds trivial.
[11:48:08] <Kris> And imho clients only partially implementing 447 would also be possible.
[11:48:12] <Holger> > I am not aware of a simpler solution that is already available as a XEP
Okay that's a different argument.

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[11:48:44] <MattJ> XEP-0215

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[11:49:08] <Licaon_Kter> Do everything via TURN
[11:49:11] <MattJ> It's specifically for allowing the XMPP server to announce non-XMPP services that require authentication
[11:49:29] <MattJ> No, XEP-0215 is about discovery, it just happens to be what we use to advertise STUN/TURN servers
[11:49:36] <MattJ> and that's basically all it's used for right now
[11:49:48] <MattJ> But if servers offered authenticated proxies, this is how it would be done

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[11:50:21] <MattJ> But nobody offers them, no clients support it, the usual chicken+egg problem
[11:50:29] <Holger> > Kaidan and Moxxy already have it
Sounds kinda similar to the situation with MIX to me 🙃
[11:50:38] <Kris> >> Kaidan and Moxxy already have it
>
> Sounds kinda similar to the situation with MIX to me 🙃
😂

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[11:51:04] <Kris> Well, once Dino has 447 support, the chicken is hatched, no?
[11:51:19] <Kris> I think Gajim is also interested in adding 447

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[11:51:48] <Holger> As I said I think 447 has the complexity problem on top of chicken/egg.
[11:52:26] <MattJ> Yeah, 447 is a bit more complex, but in exchange it has some additional possibilities (e.g. MUC servers acting as proxies)

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[11:53:10] <MattJ> If that's a thing MUC servers want, and if users don't mind exposing their IP to MUC servers (I'd like that, from an anti-spam perspective 😇)
[11:53:15] <Holger> Right, it was really more of a serious question rather than me actually being opposed 🙂

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[11:53:52] <Holger> But it _is_ just my experience over the past few years: Simple, straightforward specs: Success. Complex specs: problematic.
[11:53:57] <MattJ> My preference is still for the "your server hosts an authenticated proxy" approach
[11:54:08] <zoidberg> It could also help with latency too right? Since the files would be copied to the server that is supposed close to the clients receiving it right?
[11:54:17] <MattJ> Simpler from deployment, protocol and privacy perspective
[11:54:25] <Kris> zoidberg: yes a bit
[11:54:52] <Licaon_Kter> > My preference is still for the "your server hosts an authenticated proxy" approach
And TURN can't do this?
[11:55:08] <MattJ> Not quite
[11:55:19] <Kris> Turn doesn't proxy file uploads, no?
[11:55:21] <MattJ> For example an authenticated proxy would allow support caching

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[11:55:44] <MattJ> Kris, theoretically you can do TCP connections over TURN
[11:56:01] <zoidberg> > Turn doesn't proxy file uploads, no?
On conversations it does, for files bigger than the max http allowed

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[11:56:08] <MattJ> So you could bounce a connection to the source URL via your TURN service
[11:56:18] <Kris> Ah, ok

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[11:56:25] <MattJ> However I suspect this is locked down on 99% of TURN servers
[11:56:34] <MattJ> s/suspect/home/
[11:56:37] <MattJ> s/suspect/hope/
[11:57:15] <Holger> Well that's a TURN extension certain servers don't even implement.
[11:57:22] <Holger> Including the best ones.
[11:57:26] <MattJ> Of course :)

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[11:58:06] <Holger> RFC 6062.

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[11:58:54] <Holger> (No way to do TLS there, by the way.)

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[11:59:58] <zoidberg> Cant you guys just glue tsunami UDP on the server/client and make things work?
[12:00:05] <Holger> Or, well, I guess the peers could negotiate TLS usage. But the existing TURN libs probably wouldn't support that, if they supported 6062 in the first place 🙂

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[12:02:53] <Holger> zoidberg: You're too late with that idea, that's Google's plan for HTTP …

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[12:03:13] <zoidberg> They heard me saying before...

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[12:03:25] <Holger> Probably.

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[12:03:30] <Holger> Obviously.
[12:03:47] <Holger> I kinda sympathize with framing every problem as a nail that can be solved with the TURN hammer (to double my income with eturnal) but for file sharing I don't quite see the point 🙂

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[12:04:37] <zoidberg> High latency is tough, i liked Chris idea because it would probably help my side too 😁

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