ejabberd - Friday, January 24, 2025

[11:19:21] <Holger> One can always use the upstream repos for the time being. "Install the package, configure the XMPP domain name + turn_ipv4_address, grab certs, set up SQL, set up DNS" should be all that's necessary either way :-)
[11:19:30] <Holger> https://ejabberd.messaging.one/howto.html

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[16:09:15] <alacer> For Fun I asked MetaAI how to use sealed sender in XMPP, The LLM has mentioned that there is a Module Named mod_sealed_sender in ejabberd-contrib
Offcourse Generative AI
[16:09:43] <alacer> anyone has any idea on ongoing MetaData Privacy

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[16:09:59] <alacer> at least in the context of ejabbets
[16:10:03] <alacer> ejabbers
[16:10:34] <Licaon_Kter> XEP-0420 ?

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[16:12:34] <alacer> > XEP-0420 ?
Thx . Any Support by any server Client ?

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[16:19:42] <Licaon_Kter> Sounds like server is not involved, maybe

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[16:35:06] <alacer> I have been through the XEP0420 but still sender JID is not Encrypted for server routing

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[16:36:04] <alacer> So this kind of MetaData is not Secure only the IQ Elements or Presence related moved to <message/>
[16:36:44] <alacer> Which room is best for this discussion as it is Off Topic here

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[16:37:09] <Licaon_Kter> alacer: You're joking, right?
[16:37:26] <Licaon_Kter> > I have been through the XEP0420 but still sender JID is not Encrypted for server routing
How to route if you don't know where to?
[16:37:55] <alacer> Well The point is not where to the thing is Where from

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[16:38:22] <alacer> Offcourse without receiver JID no routing
[16:38:27] <Licaon_Kter> ...
[16:38:35] <Licaon_Kter> https://upload.convorb.im/7c370453f738f2c0c995eaee643e5e0aba76aeb0/inuXoSQOvNUlOmFha0Ou5hbkIX5H6zsgT2RvbxLI/_SQ_Q1-xSe66Ke50pW9Qhg.jpg

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[16:39:59] <alacer> That is exactly I am trying find out

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[16:40:18] <alacer> Signal to me is Over Hyped

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[16:41:58] <Holger> One difference is that Signal, being a closed system, can avoid some error cases (e.g. 'recipient address doesn't exist') that we'd produce error bounces for.

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[16:43:48] <Holger> We'd like to support server-side filtering based on 'from'. So we'd need a way for recipients to explicitly opt-in to messages without 'from'.

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[16:44:28] <Holger> MAM queries are commonly based on 'from'. (I open a chat, my client asks the server for the latest communication with that contact.)

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[16:47:49] <Holger> I think we'd run into many more issues (and would have to adjust the RFCs). Some may be solvable, other would just mean you'd have to accept the trade-off (no error notifications and whatnot). But it'd involve tons of work on many sides so it doesn't seem realistic/feasible to me.

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[16:49:44] <Holger> Many things rely quite heavily on roster/presence, i.e. your contact list being accessible by the server. If you don't solve that problem as well, hiding from probably isn't worth it.

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[16:52:04] <alacer> That us the Exact Matter since encrypting just Sender JID to a Bare JID may also lead to other issue and potentially last 26+ years of Development may have something at the core broken.

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[16:53:21] <alacer> Offcourse Signals is Redis Based with PubSub Queues but there even we are not sure as actual servers are Closed Source

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[16:54:53] <alacer> By the way from Privacy Point even an MITM with just bare JID could potentially lead to the actual senders

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[16:55:21] <alacer> But useful in court scenario
[16:55:30] <moparisthebest> alacer: probably jdev@ or xsf@ would be best for this topic
but tl;dr signal sealed sender is a lie, or perhaps the most charitable description would be it's just a pinky promise that they won't look, no one has or can have any way to verify that they don't
[16:55:38] <alacer> As actual Full JID is not there
[16:56:06] <Holger> alacer: It's not clear to me what you're up to with the bare vs. full JID distinction.

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[16:57:22] <Holger> alacer: It's about `from=$bare_jid`? I.e. whether that would be possible? Would it help with privacy?
[16:57:23] <moparisthebest> XMPP currently is much better from a metadata standpoint than signal, because there is no single entity or server that has even a small fraction of metadata for the whole network, unlike signal where they have *everything* (including phone numbers lol)
[16:57:54] <Kris> > alacer: probably jdev@ or xsf@ would be best for this topic
>
> but tl;dr signal sealed sender is a lie, or perhaps the most charitable description would be it's just a pinky promise that they won't look, no one has or can have any way to verify that they don't
👍

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[16:59:41] <moparisthebest> fwiw we've discussed it and it's probably possible to hide the recipient from the sender's server and the sender from the recipient's server, but a fair amount of work and it's of limited use (doesn't help at all when both are on the same server or when single-user servers are involved)

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[16:59:47] <alacer> Yes Holger you are correct from=> BarJID is required for Routing anyhow
But a MITM can in some trace the sender

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[16:59:58] <alacer> even if the server is not compromised

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[17:04:11] <alacer> moparisthebest: Well I am not comparing, All it Started with question to a transformer "MetaAI" and it even mentioned that mod_sealed_sender in ejabberd and Prosody.
[17:04:23] <alacer> I was just playing with it
[17:05:18] <alacer> XMPP has its own Ups and Downs but offcourse MetaData Privacy may become more essential in coming years
[17:05:28] <alacer> The world is changing

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[17:25:57] <moparisthebest> better to just ask real people that don't make up stuff as often 🤣

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[17:27:51] <moparisthebest> > fwiw we've discussed it and it's probably possible to hide the recipient from the sender's server and the sender from the recipient's server, but a fair amount of work and it's of limited use (doesn't help at all when both are on the same server or when single-user servers are involved)
as I said here XMPP can do this now, but unlike signal we generally don't like to implement things and then lie about what they protect, my "doesn't help at all when both are on the same server" is true of signal's current implementation too

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