ejabberd - Thursday, February 20, 2025

[13:48:33] <meson> I have question regarding starttls and tls: Daniel writes https://gultsch.social/@daniel/113938663319901414
> The #XMPP community should move away from STARTTLS.
ejabberd docs write https://docs.ejabberd.im/archive/24.12/listen-options/#tls
> This was the traditional encryption method in the early Jabber software (...). But this method is nowadays deprecated and not recommended. The preferable encryption method is STARTTLS on port 5222
which sounds like quiet the opposite?

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[13:51:25] <dwd> The recommendation used to be different ports, then became STARTTLS, and then has mostly switched back. There's lots of reasons for the back and forth, mostly only of historical interest. XEP-0368 is the way forward, for sure - now.
[13:53:07] <dwd> Also, only C2S had the separate port - TLS on S2S was "new" with the RFC process and StartTLS. S2S/TLS on a separate port is new with XEP-0368.

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[13:53:54] <zoidberg> meson: i asked the same question some time ago, and the answer was: zoidberg, that comment is a bit outdated. Back in the days, direct TLS was the way to go, then STARTTLS was the way to go, today direct TLS is the way to go. IT hypes come and go in waves.
[13:54:15] <meson> Alright, thank you both!

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[13:55:54] <Licaon_Kter> Profanity needs `tls legacy` for DirectTLS on 5222 on my server... confusing things...
[13:56:21] <zoidberg> Kinda of matches what Dwd said. So its settle. When those big brains agree we are on the right track.

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[13:57:17] <dwd> FWIW, I know Chris Newman, who wrote the original StartTLS design, and he's quite embarrassed by it now. But at the time, it had lots of good reasons for going that way. But they're no longer good reasons - nobody, for example, expects to get better encryption then TLS through SASL by using Kerberos. As another bit of amusing history, jabberd I think used to handle both StartTLS and direct TLS on the same port, as a transition to StartTLS. Metre (my weird S2S proxy thing) does the same now for S2S, for transitioning the other way...

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[14:02:17] <zoidberg> I am sure that soon somebody will come up with something like StartTLSPlus 25% safer and 15%faster.

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[14:10:18] <dwd> Unlikely. TLS is now well-established as the encryption layer. The next transition will probably be TCP+TLS to QUIC.

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[14:12:10] <zoidberg> and how the FAST mechanism fits fits on all this? Is there some documentation that explains it all in some easier language?

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[14:14:47] <moparisthebest> > Unlikely. TLS is now well-established as the encryption layer. The next transition will probably be TCP+TLS to QUIC.
Next? We've had that for some time

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[14:17:28] <moparisthebest> Next will be Webtransport, which has been done and working for over a year but I still need to write the spec...

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[14:34:18] <Holger> > meson: i asked the same question some time ago, and the answer was: zoidberg, that comment is a bit outdated. Back in the days, direct TLS was the way to go, then STARTTLS was the way to go, today direct TLS is the way to go. IT hypes come and go in waves.
Somebody™ should submit a PR to adjust the docs to the current wave, yes.

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[14:36:34] <Kris> Na, it will just be outdated again in ten years. No one has time to update the docs that often /s

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[14:36:53] <zoidberg> Maybe if you wait a bit more it will be accurate again.
[14:37:01] <zoidberg> Like a broken clock.

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[14:41:11] <meson> Just like fashion. Mullets are in again.

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[17:03:46] <dwd> moparisthebest, Do we have one for XMPP/QUIC yet?

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[17:04:35] <moparisthebest> Yes, years ago

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[17:05:03] <Holger> moparisthebest is always years ahead og the community 🙂
[17:05:07] <Holger> moparisthebest is always years ahead of the community 🙂

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[17:06:30] <moparisthebest> dwd: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0467.html & https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0487.html

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[17:31:16] <Licaon_Kter> _There's a XEP for that!!!_

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[17:39:36] <Kris> And an implementation as a proxy.

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[17:40:08] <Kris> But uptake seems very limited

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