ejabberd - Wednesday, April 2, 2025

[08:09:27] <zoidberg> Well i run a rather very private server, with few federations allowed. But for public servers this tool must be a very needed one.

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[08:17:00] <Mickaël> Yes, I agree, we plan to put quite some effort on the spam management and prevention features

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[08:32:52] <Licaon_Kter> Holger: Are we lost in translation?

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[08:33:18] <Holger> > _may that module never be used_
[08:33:42] <Holger> I was just curious.
[08:34:09] <Licaon_Kter> Pfffft old man...

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[08:34:42] <Licaon_Kter> I meant it as: _"I hope no one needs it as there's no spam to fight"_ :rolleyes:

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[08:36:16] <Holger> 👴

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[09:12:07] <zeank> Mickaël: how much sense does it make then to put much effort into mod_spam_filter if there's something else planned?

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[09:41:10] <MattJ> Licaon_Kter, there is plenty of spam to fight, that was clear quite some time ago :)

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[09:42:07] <MattJ> Using the spam_source_domains RTBL has reduced incoming spam significantly for me on my personal server

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[09:58:40] <zeank> Yeah, same for me
[09:59:29] <zeank> I’ve introduced some metrics that I monitor using Prometheus. This way I get a pretty good idea of how much spam is being blocked.

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[16:29:00] <Mickaël> > Mickaël: how much sense does it make then to put much effort into mod_spam_filter if there's something else planned?
For now, I had the Spam reporting XEP in mind, it does not overlap with mod_spam_filter

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[17:13:14] <Kris> >> Mickaël: how much sense does it make then to put much effort into mod_spam_filter if there's something else planned?
> For now, I had the Spam reporting XEP in mind, it does not overlap with mod_spam_filter
👍

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[17:30:15] <zeank> Been talking to MattJ about this. He’s about to propose a simplified approach. And for that case I even volunteered to implement that. But nothing’s decided here and of course if someone else wants to chip in, I have nothing against it.

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[17:42:08] <zeank> Or maybe to be more clear what he suggests is a simplified next step, the forwarding of such reports

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[17:44:07] <Kris> what's wrong with the current one?

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[17:45:02] <zeank> I’m referring to this one here: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0268.html

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[17:46:25] <zeank> Apparently there’s no or very little(?) adoption, maybe because it’s deemed to be too complicated? (Honestly I’m the wrong person to talk to because I’ve barely touched the subject)

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[17:47:38] <Kris> ah, wasn't there a newer one about report forwarding or so?

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[17:49:49] <Kris> this is what I was thinking about: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/4251
[17:50:34] <Kris> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0377.html

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[18:21:49] <MattJ> Kris, XEP-0377 wasn't really designed with forwarding in mind, but more about how to do the initial report. The current protocol used by a couple of Prosody plugins and xmppbl.org is based on XEP-0377: https://xmppbl.org/dev#forwarding-spam-reports

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[18:22:36] <MattJ> However there has been some feedback that it's a bit hacky to use XEP-0377 this way, and I'm inclined (slightly) to agree.
[18:22:45] <Kris> I see
[18:24:08] <MattJ> The current best candidate for communicating about a report/incident is XEP-0268 (Incident Handling), but it's based on an IETF standard called IODEF which is rather complex. It's also based on IODEFv1 but there is a v2 now.

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[18:25:58] <MattJ> If all the server devs agree that they are happy implementing an IODEF-based approach and updating XEP-0268, I'd be happy to go along with that. But so far it seems people would prefer something simpler, even if less flexible. My proposal for that is currently drafted at https://pad.nixnet.services/s/1ZrHSLq0G and I'll likely submit a XEP for it soon.

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[18:26:37] <MattJ> I recently added an example of what an IODEF equivalent would look like at the bottom of that page, for comparison purposes

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[18:30:59] <Kris> will it be possible to attach a screenshot or so as an receipt?

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[18:31:50] <MattJ> No... in which context would you want that? Initial user report? or communication between operators?

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[18:32:40] <Kris> I mean, if I get a random report about a user on my server what am I supposed to do about it without some sort of receipt that they did something bad?

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[18:33:18] <Kris> the user submitting the report could attach a screenshot, or the app implementing the report function could do something similar

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[18:34:03] <MattJ> XEP-0377 is used for the initial report, and it allows specifying ids of the offending message(s)
[18:34:12] <MattJ> Conversations already supports reporting messages using this mechanism
[18:34:29] <MattJ> This is preferred to a screenshot, because it can't be faked, while screenshots can
[18:35:00] <Kris> sure, but then I need to dig in the database, no? also doesn't work in e2ee chats
[18:35:19] <Kris> I think id and screenshot would be better
[18:36:00] <MattJ> > but then I need to dig in the database, no?
That depends on how your server presents this to you. If the server dumps the message id on you, that's a bit of a bad UX for the admin, I agree. But Prosody doesn't do that, and I don't imagine ejabberd would either. I don't imagine anyone would :)
[18:36:34] <Kris> how does Prosody present it?
[18:37:34] <MattJ> > also doesn't work in e2ee chats
It "works", but obviously the admin cannot read the message. But they are able to verify that the message occurred. The admin and the reporter are obviously free to communicate further about any issues.
[18:38:01] <MattJ> > how does Prosody present it?
This is Prosody. As always, "it depends" ;) (on what modules you have configured)

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[18:38:25] <Kris> well, would it be complicated to optionally reference an image upload?

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[18:39:23] <Kris> in the report I mean. Seems more flexible.

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[18:40:07] <MattJ> Servers already support providing an abuse contact, you can send stuff there if you want richer communication
[18:40:48] <Kris> well sure, but it seems to me like this would be a very small addition to the proposed XEP that would make reports much nicer.

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[18:41:11] <MattJ> I disagree, but not strongly enough that I want to argue about it
[18:41:25] <Kris> fine 🤷
[18:42:19] <MattJ> Screenshots have various issues, from forgery, the fact that they are not machine-readable, and the fact that as an admin I don't necessarily want people to be able to send important information to me in pictures
[18:42:43] <MattJ> It's only a matter of time before someone signs up on the server and submits a report and the attached screenshot is porn. This is the internet...
[18:43:21] <Kris> if only the admin can see that I don't see a problem and it serves as a self report then 😅
[18:43:28] <MattJ> The current XEP provides enough information to identify that an incident occurred, and I think a screenshot is easily obtained if necessary
[18:43:47] <MattJ> As an admin I don't want to be wading through screenshots
[18:44:00] <MattJ> or what may or may not be screenshots

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[18:44:24] <Kris> as an admin I would probably ignore most reports that are a huge hassle to verify.
[18:44:39] <Kris> people report stuff for the stupitest of reasons

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[18:45:37] <Kris> (speaking with experience from administrating two fediverse servers where I get a lot of reports)

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