ejabberd - Wednesday, September 2, 2026

[00:33:48] <ksa> Is there a max limit to how many people can be in an encrypted muc? Coz whenever I create an encrypted muc using any client and then go to muc settings in Monocles chat, I see max no. Of participants as 200.
I guess in public mucs like this ejabberd one, there can be as many members as you want?

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[00:47:06] <zoidberg> I think I've heard someone say the limit is 1000 people
[00:48:22] <zoidberg> And as for your first question, one can definitely do that.

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[00:49:40] <zoidberg> Search the docs for max_users
[00:50:00] <zoidberg> But i think you can also have a per room setting, maybe via cli or webadmin

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[00:53:03] <Kris> yes ejabberd has a silly default of max. 200 participants in MUCs. There is no technical reason for that.
[00:53:11] <Kris> you can just change it.
[00:54:17] <Kris> realistically doing OMEMO in a group chat will quickly become unusable with even a few people because of key exchange problems.
[00:55:02] <Kris> technically it is possible, but practically people will get "this message was not encrypted for your device" all the time.
[00:55:40] <Kris> and on a side note, it makes little sense to do e2ee in a quasi public chat with hundreds of participants.

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[01:06:55] <Nigel> Exactly, you're only fooling yourself that its "secure".

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[10:04:01] <Mickaël> 1000 is not a limit in MUC rooms. I have seen rooms with 10k participants

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[10:29:28] <jjj333_p (any pronouns)> i remember being told that ejabberd at some point stops sending the clients the entire participant list, though i dont know if thats true

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[10:31:43] <zoidberg> > 1000 is not a limit in MUC rooms. I have seen rooms with 10k participants
i might have over read wrongly then

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[11:26:12] <Kris> It does make sense to not send presence updates all the time in large channels because that doesn't scale well. Prosody has some module for that, not sure how ejabberd handles that.

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[11:33:20] <Nigel> teh docs say `max_users_presence: 1000` by default

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[11:46:12] <Kris> So any more and they get dropped, or what happens?

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[11:46:53] <Nigel> They don't show in user list i believe. Chat works fine.
[11:47:07] <Mickaël> yes

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[11:48:14] <Kris> I see

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[13:00:48] <moparisthebest> > They don't show in user list i believe. Chat works fine.
chat works except now you've got a channel with >1000 people and moderators can't ban or voice anyone 💀 that was a fun time in open hardware muc...

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[13:17:47] <Licaon_Kter> moparisthebest: why they could not ban/voice??

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[13:41:59] <moparisthebest> because participant list is empty so client can't know any JIDs

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[19:03:15] <ksa> > Search the docs for max_users
Oh ok

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[19:03:59] <ksa> > yes ejabberd has a silly default of max. 200 participants in MUCs. There is no technical reason for that.
Nice to hear 😊

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[19:05:57] <ksa> > realistically doing OMEMO in a group chat will quickly become unusable with even a few people because of key exchange problems.
But using omemo in a large muc encrypts media as well, right? Vids, imgs & audio. That's why I want to use Omemo in a large muc.

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[19:06:37] <ksa> > and on a side note, it makes little sense to do e2ee in a quasi public chat with hundreds of participants.
It makes sense if everyone wants their shared media to be encrypted.

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[19:07:58] <ksa> > technically it is possible, but practically people will get "this message was not encrypted for your device" all the time.
People on iOS on Monal especially receive that error all the time.

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[19:08:36] <ksa> > Exactly, you're only fooling yourself that its "secure".
😲
[19:08:57] <ksa> > 1000 is not a limit in MUC rooms. I have seen rooms with 10k participants
😲

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[19:09:51] <Kris> the problem is not specifically related to clients, but that OMEMO is strictly p2p for key exchange. so if anyone adds a new app or adds a new member then all other clients of all other participants need to somehow learn about that and often that fails when a client is offline or such.
[19:10:18] <ksa> > the problem is not specifically related to clients, but that OMEMO is strictly p2p for key exchange. so if anyone adds a new app or adds a new member then all other clients of all other participants need to somehow learn about that and often that fails when a client is offline or such.
😢
[19:10:27] <Kris> this is not solvable with OMEMO, at least not without compromising the security of it (like Matrix does).
[19:10:37] <Kris> it needs another e2ee system like MLS.

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[19:55:05] <miguel.mourao> Very interesting Kris. Thank you for the explanation. How about Signal and other known App? Do they have the same limitation?

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[20:01:57] <Kris> Signal has prinzipally the same issue, but since they restrict each participant to one client (more or less) and also restrict the size of groups, the issue is less pronounced.
[20:02:06] <Kris> Signal has principally the same issue, but since they restrict each participant to one client (more or less) and also restrict the size of groups, the issue is less pronounced.

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[20:02:57] <Kris> Matrix works around by sharing a key between clients, but this is a severe security issue that has been exploited before.

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[20:03:26] <Kris> the "proper" solution is MLS that was designed to avoid this issue from ground up.

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[20:36:28] <miguel.mourao> Thank you Kris!

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[20:46:13] <moparisthebest> I would argue the "proper" solution is getting a sane threat model, and I'm not aware of a sane one that exists where e2e on public group of hundreds of people helps at all against anything ?

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[20:48:09] <moparisthebest> if it doesn't work for a dozen people with top secret military clearance then it won't help you https://www.military.com/off-duty/hegseth-and-other-top-trump-officials-just-failed-opsec-jeff.html just make sure to say:
> we are clean on opsec

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