ejabberd - Monday, February 23, 2026

[02:59:19] <zoidberg> > I switched to 40000-65535 and now it works. Weird
Did you set the relay ip, because without it only STUN will work. I think that might be your case(not related to you changing your port range.
[02:59:28] <zoidberg> > I switched to 40000-65535 and now it works. Weird
Did you set the relay ip, because without it only STUN will work. I think that might be your case(not related to you changing your port range).

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[07:12:59] <vuokko> > > I switched to 40000-65535 and now it works. Weird
> Did you set the relay ip, because without it only STUN will work. I think that might be your case(not related to you changing your port range).
I have set up a relay IP in the coturn configuration

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[07:59:36] <zoidberg> Yep, should be good then(as long as the range is open) but to be frank, your range is *very* big, most small servers can do with a couple of hundred to a thousand ports max.

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[08:21:10] <vuokko> > Yep, should be good then(as long as the range is open) but to be frank, your range is *very* big, most small servers can do with a couple of hundred to a thousand ports max.
Yeah, that is true. At the moment I don't think it is an issue, because I'm not using that range for anything else either :D

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[13:04:11] <stratself> so i have a question about TURN servers... suppose I'm behind NAT and in a group call with 4 other people. Does that mean I'll need to establish 4 separate "channels" to the TURN server, and the 4 participants will fetch each of these channels?

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[13:05:00] <Holger> Depends on how group calls are implemented.

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[13:05:42] <stratself> i'll be using eturnal for xmpp. So I'd be interested in the xmpp way of doing it (which I think is muji?)
[13:05:45] <Holger> There's either design that you described, doesn't scale but simple to implement.

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[13:06:44] <Holger> *the design
[13:07:16] <Holger> Or server-supported group calls with some sort of component/SFU that multiplexes streams on the server-side (like e.g. Jitsi Meet does).
[13:07:25] <Holger> There's not 'the' way to do it.
[13:07:57] <Holger> E.g. WhatsApp started with the simple solution, I *think* they now do SFU as well.

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[13:08:34] <Holger> There's an XEP that describes how early versions of Jitsi did it, but no software (except for old Jitsi Videobridge versions) that implement it.
[13:08:53] <Holger> There's recent work on modern replacements that I'm not into.
[13:09:12] <stratself> i do understand the SFU architecture and its benefits. But as far as I can tell, XMPP is not implementing such things yet

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[13:09:34] <Holger> The Dino people have been working on things, and Movim/ProcessOne.
[13:09:45] <Holger> Dunno the details, maybe others in here.

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[13:10:59] <stratself> > so i have a question about TURN servers... suppose I'm behind NAT and in a group call with 4 other people. Does that mean I'll need to establish 4 separate "channels" to the TURN server, and the 4 participants will fetch each of these channels?
which is why I'd hope to get an answer. Is this basically what's happening if I, for example, start a group call in Conversations?
[13:11:23] <Holger> Maybe I misunderstood your question then.

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[13:11:28] <Holger> Conversations doesn't support group calls.
[13:11:55] <stratself> huh, okay, my bad
Do any other clients support group calls? Movim I think?
[13:12:43] <Holger> As I said, I'm aware of Dino and Movim, yes.
[13:12:53] <stratself> I see.

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[13:13:19] <Holger> Plus old Jitsi Desktop versions, i.e. XMPP supported that thing just fine 20 years ago :-)

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[13:13:57] <Holger> https://dino.im/blog/2022/02/dino-0.3-release/
[13:14:01] <stratself> My question would be that if I do group calls on them, using current XMPP technologies, would my TURN server be strained in this manner (multiple channels for multiple peers)

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[13:14:48] <stratself> (of course this is assuming I cannot make p2p connections at all to those remote participants, so kind of a "worse case scenario" planning)
[13:14:56] <Holger> That would require additional server support beyond TURN.

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[13:17:01] <Holger> Oh did I misunderstand again? Question is just whether your TURN server will cope with multiple parallel A/V streams?

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[13:19:38] <stratself> That is my concern, yes
From what I understand, my client can basically register a "session" with the TURN server, and advertise this as a "relay" candidate in webrtc signalling. This is okay for 1:1 calls
However, for group calls, the number of participants increase. With current XMPP/webRTC technologies, will my clients register multiple "sessions" and advertise multiple relay candidates to different participants in the call?

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[13:20:28] <stratself> That is kind of my concern, yes
From what I understand, my client can basically register a "session" with the TURN server, and advertise this as a "relay" candidate in webrtc signalling. This is okay for 1:1 calls
However, for group calls, the number of participants increase. With current XMPP/webRTC technologies, will my clients register multiple "sessions" and advertise multiple relay candidates to different participants in the call?

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[13:21:32] <Holger> So we're back at the starting point :-)
[13:21:37] <Holger> Depends on the client.

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[13:22:20] <Holger> If clients do that, how well the server scales obviously depends on the server resources.
[13:23:04] <stratself> > Depends on the client.
that does sound odd. You mean it is the client's responsibility to advertise/receive the minimal amount of relay candidates?

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[13:23:56] <Holger> It seems we're talking past each other. I'm just not sure at what point exactly.

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[13:25:53] <Holger> If your group is using clients that implement group calls the simple way, i.e. for a group of n people, each client does n peer-2-peer streams. Then that client would typically open n TURN sessions (which may or may not end up being needed depending on whether direct p2p works or fails), yes.

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[13:28:19] <Holger> But I mean if your server has n users that happen to all do simple p2p calls in parallel then you'll obviously end up with n TURN sessions as well. I'm pretty sure I'm misunderstanding something.

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[13:28:58] <Holger> (And I'm simplifying in that a single A/V call can easily result in multiple TURN sessions.)

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[13:32:48] <stratself> https://xmpp.muoi.me:443/upload/4c2d341d9f0ed7d19fdfaa765d01191720dafd2c/8EqAdVbJmtLUhe5cXCKdbEU270QnrSUC4heqyoWp4C/209fbe7e-242f-414b-86e6-050c6718248e.png
[13:33:02] <stratself> > https://xmpp.muoi.me:443/upload/4c2d341d9f0ed7d19fdfaa765d01191720dafd2c/8EqAdVbJmtLUhe5cXCKdbEU270QnrSUC4heqyoWp4C/209fbe7e-242f-414b-86e6-050c6718248e.png
this is the summary of my question, lol
[13:33:46] <stratself> > If your group is using clients that implement group calls the simple way, i.e. for a group of n people, each client does n peer-2-peer streams. Then that client would typically open n TURN sessions (which may or may not end up being needed depending on whether direct p2p works or fails), yes.
i think that means, for the "simple way", the right hand side would be the answer, yes?

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[13:41:44] <Holger> Yes.
Actually the full story is that TURN does support multiple peers per session, kind of like your left hand side. But there's no way to tell the TURN server to replicate the outgoing stream to multiple peers. So the client would send outgoing streams n times for n peers either way, either via a single or over n TURN sessions.

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[13:42:48] <Holger> (I'm not sure real-world TURN libraries actually support multiple TURN peers at all.)

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[13:43:08] <stratself> thanks a lot for your patience, and for the information regarding this
[13:43:22] <Holger> (I'm not sure real-world TURN client libraries actually support multiple TURN peers at all.)

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[13:44:17] <stratself> I think this means the worst case scenario my TURN server would handle, for a single group call of 4 users, would be Permutations(4,2) = 12 connections

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[13:45:23] <stratself> *and for the new information regarding this "multiple peers" support but are largely unused

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[18:29:36] <Kris> zeank, something like this would be nice for ejabberd's easy invites as well: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_invites_tracking

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[18:31:31] <zeank> That’s basically done by default and `ejabberdctl cleanup_expired_invite_tokens <host>` wipes that data.

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[18:31:57] <zeank> I plan to add that to the web-admin to make the more obvious and accessible.
[18:32:10] <Kris> would be useful yes.

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[18:32:49] <Kris> maybe also an option that when you delete an account, to also delete all accounts that have been invited through that account?

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[18:33:07] <zeank> The idea is to have a link „show all users that this user invited“ or the other way round and then a way to stop further invites and ban those users if needed.
[18:33:20] <Kris> sounds good
[18:33:37] <zeank> Delete will delete all invites but not the invited users.

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[18:36:40] <Kris> well, at least you can know which accounts got invited and keep an eye on them
[18:37:57] <raver> Wouldn't it be better to store an _invited by_ attribute at the invitee account? So that this information isn't lost when the invites are deleted?

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[18:41:12] <zeank> That would create some entanglement between the basic data model and an optional add-on.

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[18:42:58] <zeank> Plus it violates data scarcity (or how is that cold in English?). I don’t want to carry more data than absolutely needed and not for longer than needed. It’s already a bit of a stretch the way it is. With prosody it’s more modular of course. As always.
[18:43:11] <zeank> Plus it violates data scarcity (or how is that called in English?). I don’t want to carry more data than absolutely needed and not for longer than needed. It’s already a bit of a stretch the way it is. With prosody it’s more modular of course. As always.

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[19:00:47] <raver> Hmm if you make that field nullable it is only filled where the field is needed (in case the invite user and the invites are deleted, and you still want to know from whom a user was invited or if the invitee still exists) but it was just a thought🙃

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