ejabberd - Wednesday, October 21, 2026

[05:41:47] <moparisthebest> to test your CA certs?
[05:42:19] <Licaon_Kter> Rephrase pls
[05:44:27] <moparisthebest> Licaon_Kter: they were using it to test that the CA cert fix was successfully applied

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[05:44:52] <Licaon_Kter> Mmmkay
[05:46:06] <moparisthebest> Licaon_Kter: you saw https://emudhra.we-have-a-problem.com and updated all your systems ? 💀
[05:46:17] <Licaon_Kter> Yeah, yeah

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[06:26:18] <zeank> Holger, haven’t looked at the code but I’d guess that reload_config just reloads our own certs. Here it’s the check for validity of our systems certs. I don’t know for sure how that works but again my guess is, it’s something baked into erlang itself and it gets its root ca’s from the system. So maybe maybe a restart of crypto would work. If that’s even possible.

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[06:27:52] <zeank> Holger, haven’t looked at the code but I’d guess that reload_config just reloads our own certs. Here it’s the check for validity of other systems certs. I don’t know for sure how that works but again my guess is, it’s something baked into erlang itself and it gets its root ca’s from the system. So maybe maybe a restart of crypto would work. If that’s even possible.

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[06:28:30] <zeank> (The only word I could get wrong, I got wrong - or was it autocorrect? 🙄)

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[06:29:21] <zoidberg> but if we update the system certs as per the site rec, then restart ejabberd then its OK?

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[06:31:44] <zeank> Yes
[06:32:15] <zeank> (I’m not a security expert)

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[06:35:59] <dwd> Anyone claiming to be usually isn't, so by inference you probably are.

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[06:36:48] <zeank> 🤪

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[06:40:28] <zeank> Btw, it’s my understanding that disabling s2s_bidi would somewhat remedy the situation while you can’t update your CAs, if you can’t. Without bidi you still have DNS to ensure you’re talking to the right host. Or in other words, your DNS would have to be compromised too for a successful MITM.
[06:41:25] <zoidberg> phew, got that disabled already.

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[07:04:12] <moparisthebest> kinda, without bidi someone can still send messages as you

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[07:06:29] <zeank> Yeah, well, that’s why root/intermediary CAs shouldn’t fuck up the only job they have

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[07:09:34] <Holger> > Holger, haven’t looked at the code but I’d guess that reload_config just reloads our own certs.
Ah, no it also reloads the CA list we're using for verification.
[07:10:01] <Holger> So I'm still not convinced the restart is required.
[07:10:22] <Holger> I'll have a closer look now, was too tired yesterday.

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[07:12:02] <zeank> Yeah, wasn’t even awake anymore. 😛

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[07:26:32] <moparisthebest> > Yeah, well, that’s why root/intermediary CAs shouldn’t fuck up the only job they have
sure, also why we should do more and check CT log etc like browsers do (so they weren't even affected)

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[10:04:52] <MattJ> CT logs don't actively protect against cert misissuance (due to fault of the CA or of the domain owner), all they do is ensure people can detect problems after they have already happened and revoke stuff after it's discovered. SCTs are only usable if you're part of Google's cabal. I don't think we should be looking up to browsers in this case.

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[10:05:31] <MattJ> Google and Mozilla don't want us using their root bundles, let alone their CT logs

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[10:06:40] <MattJ> The whole situation is a mess and I find it concerning

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[10:23:53] <prefiks> to reload certs used by httpc (or rather ssl module that it’s used internally), you can use ejabberdctl debug console, inside execute `public_key:cacerts_clear(), public_key:cacerts_load().`

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[11:07:20] <prefiks> It looks like reload_config, indeed doesn’t reload ca certs used by ssl, so you also need to call `public_key:cacerts_clear(), public_key:cacerts_load().`

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[11:09:49] <prefiks> to test if your ca certs are correct in ejabberd, you can use this: https://pastebin.com/APUCG3s2 - this should be executed in ejabberd debug console

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[11:22:13] <zoidberg> it needs a "." at the end?

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[11:23:30] <svp> > Hello hello, a question for the room: we are considering enrolling ejabberd in Anthropic's OSS Scanner, their AI-assisted vulnerability scanning program for open source projects: https://red.anthropic.com/oss-scanner/
> We currently sit in the top 0.7% of the OpenSSF criticality score, which is one of the signals they weigh, so getting a slot should not be the hard part.
👎

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[11:24:39] <zoidberg> ive got this ```fast_tls status: vulnerable, ssl status: ok"```

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[11:25:14] <zeank> > it needs a "." at the end?
Yes

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[11:26:01] <Holger> zoidberg, did you `ejabberdctl reload-config`?
[11:26:13] <zoidberg> i restarted ejabberd
[11:26:22] <zeank> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog_syntax_and_semantics

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[11:26:55] <zeank> Holger, it’s `reload_config`
[11:27:08] <Holger> Well both work :p

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[11:28:12] <prefiks> Zoidberg: could you please in ejabberdctl debug execute:ejabberd_option:ca_file().
[11:28:13] <zeank> Oh 😅
[11:28:29] <prefiks> and see if this point to file that you updated?

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[11:29:53] <zoidberg> oh, got it, its not pointing to the OS one...

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[11:30:33] <prefiks> https://pastebin.com/QbzbhhVX

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[11:30:39] <prefiks> version with . at end ;)

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[11:32:08] <zoidberg> "fast_tls status: ok, ssl status: ok"

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[11:35:41] <Holger> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog_syntax_and_semantics
Everyone go read this now, don't come back until you've passed the Prolog test.

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[11:38:16] <zeank> 😂

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[11:39:09] <zeank> It’s not quite what I’d call “an easy read”

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[11:42:02] zoidberg asks does it need a "." Zeank sends the link😂

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[11:42:33] <zoidberg> Thankfully there was a "yes" before the link, otherwise i was lost.
[11:43:33] <zeank> Just wanted to give an explanation why erlang comes across a bit quirky 🤷‍♂️

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[13:09:44] <Holger> !version conversations.im
[13:09:44] <Servant> Holger: conversations.im is running ejabberd version 26.09.36-conversations.im on unix/linux 6.1.0

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[13:50:03] <moparisthebest> > CT logs don't actively protect against cert misissuance (due to fault of the CA or of the domain owner), all they do is ensure people can detect problems after they have already happened and revoke stuff after it's discovered. SCTs are only usable if you're part of Google's cabal. I don't think we should be looking up to browsers in this case.
MattJ: they actively prevent this particular attack though right? (CA keys leaked)

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[13:51:24] <MattJ> For random use, yes. A fellow CA could use them to forge new certs and submit them to CT ;)
[13:51:39] <MattJ> (maybe, I don't know what the auth is like on that)

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[13:55:15] <MattJ> My point is just that SCTs are a rather narrow and reactive tool, rather than a proactive defence. If you're a browser and you only use the bundled trust store, then it has some nice properties. But that's mainly achieved through centralizing everything. And I'm using "centralizing" loosely because I know these systems are distributed, but ultimately what Google (and to a lesser extent, some other members) say is what gets approved.

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[13:57:44] <moparisthebest> nothing fixes everything, I mean channel binding is way narrower in the attacks it could prevent yet we've pushed that everywhere, why not another one that literally would have prevented all this ongoing pain ?
[13:58:30] <MattJ> From what I can find, the auth on CT log submission is based on the root of what you're submitting (and they reject certs from unknown CAs). So if that's really the case, someone could easily obtain SCTs for forged certs if the private key is compromised.

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[13:59:08] <MattJ> The SCT mechanism is only to prove the cert is public, not that it was correctly issued

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[14:00:57] <MattJ> You and I have very different perspectives here if you believe "channel binding is way narrower in the attacks it could prevent"
[14:00:58] <moparisthebest> right, so protects against all secret use of these keys and proves that never happened ?

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[14:03:03] <MattJ> Yes, CT protects against secret use. It doesn't protect against publicly logged use. So after the bad thing happens, we can prove the bad thing happened.

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[14:05:04] <MattJ> It originated because Google found (via Chrome deployments) multiple CAs issuing certs for their domains, and they wanted to track this and remove such CAs from trust stores. SCTs were a natural evolution. I'm not saying they are a bad thing, but they are more useful to people who manage root stores than to you or I.
[14:05:37] <moparisthebest> channel binding "only" protects against a new c2s MITM of an existing account with a load of caveats (not new ones, not s2s, not if the password is known, not if the server disk is read, not if tls 1.2 is used)

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[14:06:37] <MattJ> And CTs can tell you if that failed ;)

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[14:07:25] <moparisthebest> and CAA can prevent it :)
[14:07:39] <MattJ> "only" if your account key is secret!

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[14:08:26] <moparisthebest> true!

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[14:08:54] <moparisthebest> to quote myself from xsf@ yesterday:
> tl;dr there is no 1 thing that will forever prevent all attacks , you just gotta pile up defenses and hope it's good enough to prevent a new one from getting through them all, today web browsers succeeded (blocked this attack entirely for everyone on saturday) and XMPP failed, but it'll only be a real failure if we don't learn some lessons and adapt

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[14:10:05] <MattJ> And all web browsers would have failed to detect the jabber.ru MITM
[14:10:15] <MattJ> (*they had no CAA, but neither do most domains)

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[14:18:37] <Licaon_Kter> MattJ: why won't server devs protects us? Whyyyy???

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[14:19:37] <moparisthebest> and client devs ;)
[14:19:48] <zoidberg> lets riot!!!

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[14:21:15] <zoidberg> I did shutdown my nextcloud server for now. Everyone is like with its hair on fire online.

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[14:21:37] <MattJ> Likewise

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[14:22:45] <Holger> At least on Debian, the PHP fixes are available now …

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[14:23:24] <MattJ> If only it was so easy. Everything is in containers now :P
[14:23:30] <Holger> Ah.

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[14:35:00] <zeank> Yesterday’s fun was to find the right sources for my arm64 machine … hetzner’s mirror was still not having the updates after many hours

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[19:52:04] <svp> > Hello hello, a question for the room: we are considering enrolling ejabberd in Anthropic's OSS Scanner, their AI-assisted vulnerability scanning program for open source projects: https://red.anthropic.com/oss-scanner/
> We currently sit in the top 0.7% of the OpenSSF criticality score, which is one of the signals they weigh, so getting a slot should not be the hard part.
>
> So, tldr: a large majority of the security reports we have received over the past months are AI-assisted. That is the current reality of vulnerability reporting and it honestly helped us ship a good number of security fixes this year (and counting...).
> These tools are already being pointed at our code by nice people (so far). We would rather have it done on our terms and get a head start: the code is open source anyway, so the people who mean harm already have it and their tools too. The only question is whether we look first.
>
> What we expect from it is a free extra pass that catches the kind of low-hanging issues that are now trivially discoverable. Reports go to maintainers, so the noise lands on us and every finding goes through the same human triage as any other report. On paper this looks like an easy win, for us and for everyone running it: selfhosters, communities and companies alike.
>
> So: what do you think, anything that should stop us?
> (If you cannot be bothered to type a full reply, a thumbs-up/thumbs-down on this msg is a good answer and still tells us something. If there are objections, please go ahead. :)
im not thrilled at the idea but as long as no llm-written patches make it into the codebase i'll just sigh and try not to care much

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