Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Tuesday, January 30, 2018< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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GMT+0
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[00:28:50] <Student> is it possible?
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[03:58:11] <Student> xmpp client disconnect every 1-2 minutes on Debian, can someone help me with that?
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[06:19:33] <Holger> Student: Just upgrade to the backports version?
[06:20:09] <Holger> Student: https://packages.debian.org/de/stretch-backports/ejabberd
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[06:41:59] <Student> do this
[06:42:08] <Student> and ejabberdctl doesnt work
[06:44:00] <rom1dep> Student: but the log says something, doesn't it?
[06:44:34] <Student> it say that Failed conecting to RPC etc....
[06:44:49] <zinid> logs cannot say that
[06:45:16] <Student> Failed RPC connection to the node ejabberd@server: nodedown
[06:45:45] <zinid> logs cannot say that
[06:46:26] <zinid> you don't even know how to read logs, yet, you want to administer an xmpp server? really?
[06:51:15] <Student> I was told that I see on terminal
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[07:48:03] <zinid> there should be something in /var/log/ejabberd
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[08:44:19] <rom1dep> zinid: I told you, don't make it too easy!
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[08:47:27] rom1dep actually works on a tool whose name starts with EasySomething, and it's the most fucked up and counter intuitive software I've ever seen
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[09:34:08] <Liquids> Hi all :) I´m starting to pull out hair. My own hair. I deketed mnesia and SQl databases and started all over. Users can connent to my ejabberd-server without problems, but they simply cannot fetch OMEMO-keys to start chatting encrypted
[09:34:32] <Liquids> I keep seeing the same errror in my logs:
[09:35:00] <Liquids> <text xml:lang='en' xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-                                                                     stanzas'>Node not found</text></error></iq>">
[09:35:38] <Liquids> problem seems to stem from pubsub  :-(
[09:36:01] <prefiks> did something put that that data in pubsub?
[09:36:09] <Liquids> <pubsub xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub'><items node='eu.                                                                     siacs.conversations.axolotl.devicelist'/></pubsub><error code='404                                                                     ' type='cancel'>
[09:36:14] <Liquids> yes, but what ?
[09:36:37] <Liquids> why does it keep 404´ing ?
[09:37:26] <prefiks> can you post whole stanza? is that for set or get?
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[09:37:59] <Liquids> this is error I get when a user tries to send first OMEMO message to antoher user
[09:38:23] <Liquids> the client then gets error ¨no valid OMEMO keys available¨
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[09:41:18] <prefiks> but did anything set those keys at all? you understand that pubsub is just data store, something must put data in first, or you get error like that when you try to fetch it without storing it first
[09:42:35] <Liquids> these users existed before on this server
[09:42:53] <Liquids> but I deleted the DB´s several times already
[09:43:05] <Liquids> to start with a ´clean sheet´ after the errors began
[09:44:40] <prefiks> you need to check clients logs (or it should be visible in server logs if you set loglevel to 5) if something store value in that node first (search for pubsub request with type="set" for that node)
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[09:48:21] <Liquids> loglevel is at 5  :-D
[09:48:33] <Liquids> i will perform a search like you asked
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[09:55:59] <Liquids> nothing from pubsub/set in logs
[09:56:10] <Liquids> only from mod_shared_roster
[09:56:38] <Liquids> and Xmpp_socket
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[10:03:42] <vanitasvitae> Liquids: what clients are your users using?
[10:03:53] <Liquids> Conversations
[10:04:23] <Liquids> troubles started when 2 users with Iphones/chatsecure tried to join the OMEMO though
[10:04:25] <vanitasvitae> Conversations normally publishes devicelist + bundle upon login
[10:04:33] <Liquids> but that was yesterday
[10:04:39] <Liquids> those 2 users are gone
[10:04:55] <Liquids> I restarted with clean sheet and just 2 conversations users
[10:05:32] <Liquids> vanitasvitae, ok, I will look for more info there. Will make them go offline/online and check logs
[10:05:44] <vanitasvitae> Thats a good idea
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[10:17:50] <Liquids> >@mod_client_state:filter_other:267 Won't add stanza for blub@xyz.xx/phone to CSI queue
[10:18:01] <Liquids> this pops out
[10:18:15] <Liquids> no idea what that means :)
[10:19:16] <Liquids> followed by this: >@mod_client_state:dequeue_sender:318 Flushing packets of @xyz.xx from CSI queue of blub@xyz.xx/phone
[10:20:30] <Liquids> and then the xmpp_socket error 404
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[10:23:56] <Liquids> regarding pubsub specifically I see this: >@mod_pubsub:tree_call:3520 tree_call apply(nodetree_tree_sql, get_node
[10:26:17] <Liquids> bunch of lines also in error.log when this user blub comes online:
[10:26:40] <Liquids> >@mod_pubsub:transaction_retry:3627 transaction return internal error: {aborted,"#42S22Unknown column 'plugin' in 'field list'"}
[10:27:06] <Liquids> >@ejabberd_hooks:safe_apply:383 Hook c2s_terminated crashed when running mod_pubsub:on_user_offline/2:
** Reason = {error,{badmatch,{error,{stanza_error,wait,500,<<>>,'internal-server-error',[{text,<<"en">>,<<"Database failure">>}]
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[10:28:24] <vanitasvitae> database failure sounds like it is related to your database :D
[10:28:30] <cromain> https://docs.ejabberd.im/admin/upgrade/from_17.09_to_17.11/
[10:28:55] <vanitasvitae> I'd suggest you to stay persistent until someone with actual expertise comes online :D
[10:29:39] <cromain> error is self explanatory, read the upgrade note
[10:30:00] <Liquids> I see
[10:30:06] <Liquids> :)
[10:31:25] <Liquids> cromain, so I would just enter all those commands in chapter MySQL ?
[10:31:42] <Liquids> this would create the needed extra tables ?
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[10:32:01] <Liquids> (MySQL is not my ¨point fort¨)
[10:33:12] <Liquids> :)
[10:34:33] <cromain> yep, just rename the column as described
[10:34:45] <Liquids> ok, I will give that a try :)
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[10:37:59] <Liquids> hmmm: it errors after the first command: ejabberd.archive does not exist. I loaded the scheme from /opt/ejabberd-18.01/lib/ejabberd-18.01/priv/sql/mysql.sql.
[10:38:27] <Liquids> Is that perhaps an older version, so more tables missing? :s
[10:39:50] <Liquids> is the one from Git the one I need to use perhaps ?
[10:40:08] <Liquids> I notice that one has .archive
[10:40:09] <Liquids> :)
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[10:58:52] <Liquids> So I dropped the old ejabberd mySQL DB and tried to use the Git-scheme instead
[10:59:18] <Liquids> I get this error: ERROR 1214 (HY000) at line 104: The used table type doesn't support FULLTEXT indexes
[11:00:00] <Liquids> which points here, I suppose: CREATE FULLTEXT INDEX i_text ON archive(txt);
[11:00:13] <Liquids> how to proceed ? :)
[11:00:36] <Holger> Liquids: What distribution/version?
[11:00:48] <Liquids> 18.01
[11:01:00] <Holger> Liquids: Linux distribution I mean.
[11:01:07] <Liquids> ah, sorry
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[11:01:56] <Holger> Liquids: You need MySQL 5.6 or newer, or MariaDB 10.something.
[11:02:19] <Holger> 10.0.5
[11:02:24] <Liquids> debian Jessie 8.10
[11:03:10] <Holger> Jessie's MySQL is too old.
[11:03:19] <Holger> apt install mariadb-server
[11:03:19] <Liquids> mysql  Ver 14.14 Distrib 5.5.59
[11:03:22] <Holger> ... should do the trick.
[11:03:22] <Liquids> jep
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[11:09:00] <Liquids> Holger, aha: I installed and now have a nice long list of tables in my DB
[11:09:12] <Liquids> on to checking the OMEMO-issue now :)
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[11:11:13] <Holger> tudent: You *might* just be stumbling over Debian's change of the default node name.  During the upgrade, you should've seen this message: https://salsa.debian.org/ejabberd-packaging-team/ejabberd/blob/master/debian/NEWS#L3 (while at it, you will also want to read the following one) ...
[11:11:28] <Holger> Student: ^
[11:14:36] <Liquids> OMEMO works now ! From Conversations to Conversations at least
[11:14:43] <Liquids> now veryfying Chatsecure
[11:15:13] <Liquids> thanks cromain & Holger & vanitasvitae
[11:15:16] <Liquids> :)
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[12:35:45] <zinid> Holger, jabber.at didn't update mod_block_strangers yet?
[12:35:58] <zinid> Holger, I still receive errors from alacer ;)
[12:36:14] <Holger> They updated their .deb but probably not their own server.
[12:36:35] <zinid> ha, ok
[12:36:45] <zinid> they can just reload the module btw ;)
[12:36:50] <Holger> Mati is still not back home.
[12:36:55] <Holger> I told him so :-)
[12:37:01] <zinid> ah
[12:37:45] <Holger> I'll meet him on Thursday in Brussels, maybe he can just give me an SSH shell ;-)
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[12:38:34] <zinid> :)
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[13:43:59] <Holger> #2256
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[13:44:33] <Holger> Seems admins are getting more retarded every day.
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[14:36:25] <zinid> Holger: exactly my thoughts
[14:36:47] <zinid> The problem is now you must satisfy them
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[15:28:10] <Holger> Wow, looks like real activity: https://github.com/psi-im/psi/commits/master
[15:28:20] <Holger> I didn't expect Psi to ever rise from the dead again ...
[15:29:55] <SouL> Yeah, Rion was right
[15:30:11] <SouL> I think they are doing well, trying to merge Psi+ and Psi
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[15:32:59] <edhelas> 2018 will be the year of XMPP on Desktop :D
[15:33:48] <Holger> World domination is closer than ever!
[15:34:26] <edhelas> yeah
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[15:45:51] <zinid> Amen
[15:46:13] <edhelas> zinid you here ?!
[15:46:27] <Holger> .oO( Sounds like work! )
[15:46:35] <zinid> They should replace the terrible UI from 2000s
[15:47:05] <edhelas> USSR UIs, Pidgin/Gajim as well :p
[15:47:06] <SouL> That's something else :)
[15:47:14] <zinid> Psi looks like fucking ICQ2001b
[15:47:23] <Holger> :-)  You can't turn Psi into a modern client.
[15:47:32] <edhelas> and Swift :-°
[15:47:46] <SouL> Bascially all except Movim
[15:47:54] <SouL> :P
[15:47:54] <Holger> At the very best you can make it usable by geeks again.
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[15:48:00] <edhelas> you damn right SouL
[15:48:56] <Holger> Movim and Tkabber.
[15:49:29] <edhelas> http://tclsoap.sourceforge.net/tkabber097-winxp.png
[15:49:40] <edhelas> can't handle all those futuristic designs
[15:49:52] <edhelas> it's too advanced for me
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[15:52:17] <zinid> Actually tkabber was great for nerds
[15:52:18] SouL leaves the room
[15:52:35] <zinid> But its development halted completely
[15:54:04] <zinid> A ton of configuration options and almost bugfree...
[15:54:28] <zuglufttier> I remember using psi ten years ago. Was trying to convince my friends that jabber is better than icq...
[15:55:11] <SouL> And now it's the same but changing icq for WhatsApp
[15:55:14] <SouL> Hah
[15:55:23] <SouL> Well, not funny actually ^^'
[15:55:24] <Holger> zinid: Yes Tkabber was good, it's just the Tk look & feel that's so easy to bash these days.
[15:55:30] <zinid> 10 years ago I think jabber already started to lose positions
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[16:02:49] <zuglufttier> And soon after that Facebook and those started to gain attraction.
[16:03:44] <zinid> I don't even understand how Facebook become so popular
[16:04:18] <zinid> It's pure shit, also there were a lot of blog hostings
[16:04:25] <zuglufttier> It's easy to use and does the thinking for you.
[16:04:34] <zuglufttier> Login and turn off your brain.
[16:05:00] <Holger> Like Movim!
[16:05:05] <zinid> Well, I will never get it
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[16:06:47] <zinid> BTW, Facebook is virtually non-existent in Russia
[16:07:03] SouL leaves the room
[16:07:16] <Holger> You all do ... what was it called ... v-something
[16:07:25] <Holger> The thing Snowden is/was working for?
[16:07:25] <zinid> Instagram is dominating here
[16:07:39] <zinid> Holger: yeah, an vk.com
[16:07:46] <Holger> Right, VK.
[16:09:12] <zinid> Well, a lot of stuff doesn't exist here: common people continue using Yandex and mail.ru
[16:09:29] <zinid> Not google
[16:09:47] <zinid> But I think Android will finally change that
[16:10:29] <zinid> Anyway, we're resisting!!! Unlike Europe 😁
[16:11:14] <Holger> You're rebels!
[16:11:22] <mr.newbie> I think china did a good job 😛
[16:11:29] <zuglufttier> zinid, facebook is a feedback loop: You post something and get instant feedback by likes, comments or whatever. Although it changes nothing at all, just gives you a nice feeling.
[16:11:30] <edhelas> Japan as well
[16:12:05] <zinid> zuglufttier: but there was livejournal
[16:13:09] <zuglufttier> Facebook, for some people, is the internet. Nothing else is needed: You get videos, games, chats, "friends", news, whatever. You never have to leave that and only need one or two apps.
[16:14:12] <edhelas> yeah a bit like Movim here, get the chats, news, contacts… wait
[16:14:30] <zinid> I think this is only true for old generation btw
[16:15:20] <edhelas> yeah
[16:15:24] <zuglufttier> Many people don't understand the internet anymore, also young people: They must use google to visit other sites. They don't understand the concept or URLs.
[16:15:49] <zuglufttier> And that's because google wants it like that.
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[16:16:55] <edhelas> I don't know if there was a conspiracy at google for that
[16:17:03] <edhelas> it's just over simplification of the UIs + laziness
[16:17:28] <zinid> zuglufttier: my wife was surprised yesterday why I pasted URL directly in URL "holder" (or how it's called, I always forgetting) and not in Google input field
[16:18:05] <edhelas> :D
[16:18:12] <zuglufttier> That's not even funny...
[16:18:37] <Holger> I think it's fine.  It's simpler.
[16:18:40] <zinid> Yeah, I was also surprised, hehe
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[16:20:07] <zinid> Well probably it's fine if you're only a consumer
[16:20:41] <zinid> And you produce zero content
[16:20:43] <Holger> In what sense?  FB users produce text all day, no?
[16:21:08] <edhelas> Holger oh really ?
[16:21:22] <edhelas> I think that Facebook is mostly about scrolling, and sometime pushing the like button
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[16:21:43] <edhelas> the original content, created by "real" users on Facebook is quite low
[16:21:54] <zinid> Holger: last time I checked there were less than 10% of people producing something in the internet (including forums, etc)
[16:21:55] <Holger> Well dunno, maybe.
[16:22:00] <edhelas> too much efforts
[16:22:11] <Holger> For my taste there's still way too much content produced :-)
[16:22:28] <Holger> How about Movim users!
[16:22:47] <edhelas> well well well
[16:22:51] <Holger> :-)
[16:22:55] <SouL> :D
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[16:23:16] <zinid> All people I know in person produce zero content, they only scroll and click, yes
[16:23:21] <edhelas> there's no Movim users, just XMPP users B-)
[16:23:31] edhelas ---> []
[16:24:11] <Holger> zinid: Nah several of my people post stuff on Facebook.
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[16:24:20] <Holger> Not sure how representative my people are :-)
[16:24:43] <edhelas> yeah Holger have lots of bots friends
[16:25:13] <zinid> 😁
[16:25:23] <edhelas> also on XMPP, sending thousands of messages per day to the other servers, it's "to test the load" he said :D
[16:25:24] <Holger> I write my friends myself!
[16:25:29] <Holger> Or at least I host them.
[16:25:31] <Holger> !slap edhelas
[16:25:33] Servant slaps edhelas with a large trout
[16:25:38] <edhelas> meh :'(
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[16:28:03] <zuglufttier> Hard to know these days if you have friends or just bots. On facebook, you'd hardly notice the difference.
[16:28:30] <Holger> I almost get the feeling you guys don't like Facebook!
[16:29:15] <zinid> I ❤️ Facebook
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[16:38:56] <zuglufttier> +1 It always has a place in my heart-
[16:38:59] <zuglufttier> +1 It always has a place in my heart.
[16:39:15] <zuglufttier> Just not in my browser.
[16:39:30] <zinid> you use browser?
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[16:40:42] <zinid> edhelas, do you develop Movim in spare time too?
[16:41:03] <Holger> I don't use my Facebook account either, but I can understand just fine why everyone else uses it.
[16:41:48] <Holger> Maybe it would be a better world if everyone did Movim instead, but that's like using Conversations instead of WhatsApp. Communication tools make more sense when they're peers to communicate with ...
[16:42:38] <zinid> fucking capitalism
[16:42:45] <Holger> Indeed.
[16:43:33] <zinid> I actually think governement may regulate this: the regulate virtually all sort of shits, but not this silo'ed megaportals like Google or Facebook
[16:44:35] <zinid> instead, the government resorted to do censorship and to write stupid laws about blockchain
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[16:45:25] <Holger> Government seems the only option within capitalism, but it's not by accident that such regulations aren't done.  The incluence of economic interest on government is too strong.  Politics couldn't change things substantially even if they had the best intentions.
[16:45:53] <zuglufttier> But, and that's different from the past, nowadays it's easy to host your own solutions! You can do e-mail, messaging, social networks and all that stuff from your home.
[16:46:53] <zinid> zuglufttier, I used to do that back in 2004
[16:46:55] <Holger> But you won't be able to talk to anyone unless the big players do federation.
[16:47:06] <Holger> So email works, chat & social doesn't.
[16:47:20] <zinid> working email is just a coincidence I think
[16:47:40] <Holger> Yes.  Historical leftover.
[16:47:49] <zuglufttier> People must get used to the idea that they can do things on their own.
[16:47:54] <zuglufttier> Takes time...
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[16:48:10] <Holger> That's where I totally disagree with the privacy/geek crowd.
[16:48:19] <Holger> "People must" ...
[16:48:41] <Holger> People will always choose the easiest option, and that's totally rational.
[16:48:59] <zinid> Holger, I think another part of the problem with government is that it's really hard to prove that 100500 IM networks is bad: you have a choice!
[16:49:03] <Holger> I don't want to take care of my car on my own either.
[16:49:05] <zuglufttier> True, it's not what I meant. We need to produce usable solutions.
[16:49:40] <zuglufttier> And if they prove to be a real solution, then the get adopted.
[16:49:45] <zuglufttier> And if they prove to be a real solution, then they get adopted.
[16:50:02] <Holger> zuglufttier: I don't think that's how it works within capitalism.
[16:50:26] <zuglufttier> I don't do capitalism.
[16:50:29] <zuglufttier> :D
[16:50:37] <zuglufttier> It does me, well...
[16:50:43] zuglufttier leaves the room
[16:50:50] <Holger> You act within a market environment.
[16:50:51] <zinid> a great example is bittorent: you can download multimedia for free!! Bot people don't use it: too complex
[16:51:14] SouL leaves the room
[16:51:14] <Holger> And within that environmen, you need tons of $$$ both for developing something usable and for marketing to create the required network effect.
[16:51:31] <SouL> Haha, "bot people". Nice term, I will use it from now on :D
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[16:52:19] <Holger> So I think it's a social problem, not a problem of individual decisions.  So we can't solve it by convincing individuals to change their decisions.
[16:52:25] <Holger> Whatever :-)  I'm hungry.
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[17:21:08] <zinid> Holger, seems like Travis will be fixed soon ;)
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[17:27:26] <Holger> zinid: Yay. I saw prefiks' "disable Riak" commit, looked at the remaining build failure, and gave up after a minute, hoping that you guys will handle it 😎
[17:27:51] <zinid> Holger, yeah, we already identified the issue
[17:28:06] <Holger> Cool.
[17:28:32] <zinid> Seems like I need to update my computer...
[17:28:35] <Holger> Whenever you do Open Source in your spare time, I recommend choosing a project backed by a company.
[17:28:49] <zinid> It takes 10 seconds to start ejabberd from cold state
[17:29:01] <zinid> I see it only takes 3 seconds on Travis machine :/
[17:29:02] <Holger> Heh.
[17:29:24] <zinid> and this is an initial start, including creating all the tables and cache
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[17:42:37] <ThUnD3r|Gr33n®> zinid: don't be that hard with Student  😂😂😂
[17:43:05] <ThUnD3r|Gr33n®> zinid: take a raspberry and u will see Tue full performance of ejabberd 😂😂😂😂
[17:43:21] Man_Life leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[17:43:52] <ThUnD3r|Gr33n®> BTW.is ejabberd ready for upcoming new namespace for httpupload in conversations ?
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[17:50:26] <Holger> ThUnD3r|Gr33n®: The current namespace (upload:0) is supported since April 2017: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/commit/168712ebbd8
[17:50:38] <Holger> Or what upcoming namespace do you mean?
[17:51:38] <ThUnD3r|Gr33n®> [Commit e48788e821 on siacs/Conversations]
https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/commit/e48788e821c1c2cdab3647a0f4cce197ea626fe9
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[17:53:11] <Holger> Yes that's the upload:0 namespace.
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[17:55:13] <Holger> (So everything fine.)
[17:55:35] <Holger> It would be nice if other clients implemented that as well.  Will simplify the server-side code.
[17:57:22] <zinid> Holger, yeah, we can remove the code 10 years later ;)
[17:57:40] <Holger> Hehe, yeah.
[17:57:43] <zinid> we still support mam:tmp (not sure if needed though)
[17:58:07] <Holger> I'm not aware of a public cient that does mam:tmp.
[17:58:31] <zinid> I would give a shit on a rare public client, but our customers may still be using it
[17:58:38] <Holger> Yup ...
[17:59:12] <zinid> but I feel this is unlikely
[17:59:20] <zinid> so probably will remove it a bit later this year
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[18:00:14] <zinid> Holger, do you see any memory spikes now, with 18.01?
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[18:00:44] <Holger> Hehe I asked Mati *this very second* (but he's offline).
[18:00:56] <Holger> No spikes on c.im.  Looks really good.
[18:01:10] <zinid> can I have erlang:memory() ? :)
[18:01:17] <zinid> you can paste it privately
[18:01:40] zinid loves stat
[18:01:40] <Holger> [{total,444334584},
{processes,129921872},
{processes_used,129917728},
{system,314412712},
{atom,1115337},
{atom_used,1100359},
{binary,64158560},
{code,23428886},
{ets,61425496}]
[18:02:06] <Holger> I think we published all remotely-sensitive data (number of users and so on) the other day in the Conversations room :-)
[18:02:35] <zinid> not sure why would you keep this in secret, but whatever ;)
[18:02:58] <Holger> So ~420 MB.  Actual usage is around 900 MB.
[18:03:25] <zinid> yeah, since now TLS memory is not tracked, hard to say what eats 500Mb
[18:03:27] <Holger> With ~2.8k online devices.
[18:03:31] <Holger> Yup.
[18:04:11] <zinid> but I tend to blame openssl
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[18:04:34] <zinid> I have enourmous amount of memory eaten by openssl when I start several thousands of s2s connections
[18:04:46] <zinid> like half of the memory or so
[18:04:51] <Holger> Yes I think that usage is about realistic.
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[18:05:29] <Holger> I forgot, will things crash during normal operation when telling OpenSSL to use enif_alloc*?
[18:05:39] <zinid> Holger, no
[18:05:55] <Holger> So I could change that locally to double-check the memory usage.
[18:05:59] <zinid> yep
[18:06:14] <Holger> Will do.
[18:06:19] <zinid> thanks ;)
[18:06:33] <zinid> just don't forget next time you going to restart the server ;)
[18:07:12] <mr.newbie> Why do people prefer matrix over xmpp?
[18:07:33] <zinid> mr.newbie, because xmpp is outdated and matrix is modern
[18:07:39] SouL leaves the room
[18:08:12] <zinid> I also tend to think it's even more nerdish than xmpp ;)
[18:08:32] <Holger> zinid: Yeah.  Patching dependencies temporarily is always a bit harder because I might override my changes by updating deps/ ...
[18:08:33] <zinid> at least when I open riot.im my first reaction is: wow, so many stuff
[18:08:50] <Holger> Yes it is.
[18:09:00] <Holger> Target audience is IRC or maybe Slack users.
[18:09:10] <Holger> So geeks and professionals/
[18:09:12] <mr.newbie> zinid: i dont know why but i dont see that, imho i think xmpp is much stable and has better design when it comes to S2S
[18:09:34] <zinid> mr.newbie, maybe, I know very little about matrix, since I'm biased
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[18:10:06] <zinid> they have interesting ideas, but I don't see a good implementation: the only available full-featured server is in python, what???
[18:10:11] <Holger> I've read through the spec, but that's ages ago.
[18:11:00] <zinid> Holger, and spec is extremely shitty, our RFCs look like a Hamlet poem in front of this pile of words
[18:11:01] <Holger> I think the basic model is sane.  Basing everything on server-side history makes sync much easier compared to adding this as an afterthought.
[18:11:35] <Holger> zinid: Yes the spec as such is horrible indeed.
[18:11:45] <Holger> zinid: And yes so are the implementations.
[18:11:53] <mr.newbie> zinid: Roit is just a client. If we worked on client for each platform and unify it, i think then xmpp will dominate
[18:12:34] <zinid> mr.newbie, sure, but there is no money in xmpp
[18:12:46] <mr.newbie> I am using both matrix and xmpp, i find the only advantage that matrix has is the audio/video calls
[18:12:54] <zinid> so all we see is a bunch of devs working in spare time
[18:13:27] <Holger> mr.newbie: Well A/V is not a protocol thing.
[18:13:30] <zinid> A/V indeed might be a killer feature, but, sadly, developers don't care of it
[18:13:32] <mr.newbie> Other than that xmpp rules, specially when using ejabberd ❤
[18:13:57] <Holger> I mean it is :-)  But there's nothing superior in Matrix regarding A/V.
[18:14:13] <Holger> For A/V conferencing, Riot even uses Jitsi :-)
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[18:15:28] <mr.newbie> Holger: me and my friend are working on a conversations plugin that would integrate jitsi
[18:15:38] <Holger> zinid: Mati is back online, his memory usage looks fine too.
[18:15:45] <zinid> Holger, great
[18:16:20] <zinid> prefiks, you see, we finally got rid of memleaks by replace the hash table implementation, lol ;)
[18:16:29] <zinid> *by replacing
[18:16:36] <Holger> mr.newbie: If it works well, people will love you!
[18:17:23] <SouL> What Holger said :D
[18:18:16] <Holger> And everyone will join this room asking how the fuck to revert the SCRAM hashes.
[18:18:39] <Holger> I'll refer them to rom1dep.
[18:18:41] <mr.newbie> Hopefully in a week we'll get a working prototype
[18:19:39] <zinid> mr.newbie, nice
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[18:21:27] <zinid> I even disabled SCRAM SASL on my server :)
[18:21:38] <zinid> disabled everything except PLAIN actually
[18:21:44] <rom1dep> Holger: meh.
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[18:24:04] <rom1dep> maybe by then zinid would have implemented mod_oneshot_plain_scram_proxy, assuming Daniel would accept to turn the auth downgrade error into a warning.
[18:26:56] <Holger> zinid: So did I on my university server.  On c.im, passwords a SCRAM-hashed because my co-admin preferred this.
[18:27:21] <zinid> heh
[18:27:35] <Holger> rom1dep: If Conversations gets well-working A/V support then Daniel will have an own interest in reverting this I guess :-)
[18:28:28] <rom1dep> mr.newbie: now you feel the pressure?
[18:28:37] <SouL> Boom
[18:28:39] <zinid> :D
[18:28:52] <rom1dep> ^^
[18:29:03] <rom1dep> that'd be awesome
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[18:29:17] <Holger> *Or* we figure out an alternative solution, of course.  (Temporary TURN credentials or whatever.)
[18:29:43] <Holger> There's an XEP that does this.
[18:30:21] <zinid> Holger, I think termporary credentials should be more general XEP, because they can be used in different places
[18:30:22] <rom1dep> why isn't there a XEP that does my laudry as well?
[18:30:34] <zinid> like MUC invites for example, or with SIP proxy
[18:33:19] <Holger> zinid: I think the XEP is generic actually: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0215.html
[18:33:32] <Holger> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0215.html#credentials
[18:33:48] <Holger> The example is TURN, but AFAICS it should also work for SIP and stuff.
[18:34:33] <Holger> Well: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0215.html#registrar-services
[18:34:55] <mr.newbie> We already made a conversations with jitsi built in but we are trying to make a stand alone plugin
[18:35:16] <Holger> mr.newbie: What Jitsi code are you working with?  The old Android client?  Or Jitsi Meet code?
[18:35:40] <rom1dep> mr.newbie: what is required server-side on top of a regular XMPP server?
[18:36:06] <mr.newbie> We are just using jitsi-meet sdk
[18:36:18] <zinid> Holger, indeed, but I recall I didn't like something about this XEP and that's why I didn't implement it
[18:36:27] <Holger> zinid: Ah, ok.
[18:36:40] <mr.newbie> rom1dep: nothing regarding any modification to xmpp it self
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[18:37:11] <mr.newbie> Just having a jitsi-meet instant running and pointing the url to it
[18:37:14] <Holger> mr.newbie: Are you always doing a conference?  I.e. a 1:1 call would be a conference with two participants?
[18:37:28] <mr.newbie> Holger: Yes
[18:37:45] <Holger> Ah.  That's cheating ;-)  But probably will do the trick in practice, yes.
[18:38:10] <mr.newbie> Jitsi when only 1:1 it enabled e2ee
[18:38:23] <zinid> fuck yeah, e2ee
[18:38:40] <mr.newbie> When more participant joins it then e2s then s2e
[18:38:47] <Holger> "jitsi-meet instance" -- one of the components has STUN/TURN built in, IIRC?
[18:38:58] <Holger> But I dunno how authentication works in that case.
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[18:39:38] <zinid> I'm not sure you need any TURN/STUN for a media relay, what for?
[18:39:39] <mr.newbie> When using 1:1 u need stun else no need, for now i disabled that
[18:40:04] <zinid> all data is relayed via the service anyway (which sucks btw, but that's a separate topic)
[18:40:47] <SouL> mr.newbie, good to hear that you are working on that, better don't say this loud until it's finished :D
[18:41:14] <zinid> SouL, why not? we need something to critisize
[18:41:23] <mr.newbie> 🙊
[18:41:23] <Holger> zinid: Well it makes sense for an actual video conference.  Which is the intended use case.  Which is why I said it's "cheating".
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[18:42:27] <zinid> Holger, ah, you mean for ICE session between the conference instance and a client?
[18:43:23] <Holger> zinid: I thought it might be required for the conference instance to connect back to the clients, but it seems Jitsi just falls back to TCP in case of UDP trouble: https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/324
[18:43:42] <Holger> So yes, probably there's no need for STUN/TURN.
[18:44:53] <Holger> So performance might not end up as good as it could be for peer-to-peer A/V, but at least you avoid all the ICE issues.
[18:45:31] <zinid> ICE is indeed hard, but at least working, every A/V service is using it nowadays, including whatsapp
[18:45:48] <Holger> Yes I know, I'm all for using it.
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[18:52:01] <Holger> zinid: On my 16.09 server (with the TLS driver that uses driver_alloc()), OTP sees about 540 MB of memory, while about 720 MB are actually allocated.
[18:52:43] <zinid> Holger, yeah, that's Erlang
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[18:52:54] <Holger> Yup.
[18:53:10] <zinid> for example, when I stop stress testing, erlang shows around 50Mb, when in fact consumed several hundreds
[18:53:35] <zinid> however, when you start the testing again, the memory doesn't grow further
[18:53:45] <zinid> seems like some sort of weird pre-allocation
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[19:00:01] <zinid> or maybe that's just fragmentation
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[19:11:24] <zinid> !version jabbim.cz
[19:11:25] <Servant> zinid: jabbim.cz is running ejabberd version 17.11 on unix/linux 4.4.19
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[19:16:47] <Holger> zinid: Yup, whatever, it's probably just fine.
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[19:19:57] <zinid> yeah, given how much RAM my firefox eats...
[19:20:40] <Holger> Hehe.
[19:21:13] <Holger> Well that's written in C++.  Not everyone is using a memory-efficient language such as Erlang.
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[19:21:44] <rom1dep> IIUC, STUN/TURN is what allows two peers to discover their IPs, and in case of a NAT, to proxify the stream. How is ICE adding-up on that?
[19:23:00] <Holger> rom1dep: ICE is the set of procedures the client performs to establish the connection.  STUN and TURN are the helper services it might or might not use while doing so, depending on the environment.
[19:23:43] <zinid> rom1dep, what Holger said, ICE has normative rules on how to exchange addresses and ports
[19:23:59] <zinid> the idea is simple
[19:26:01] <rom1dep> so w/o STUN/TURN, would ICE be able to negociate a P2P connection?
[19:26:37] <Holger> Only if the peer's IP address/port is directly reachable.
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[19:27:52] <zinid> but now, with all that greatly configured firewalls in hotels and airports, I'm not that sure even ICE will help :/
[19:28:12] <Holger> rom1dep: If it isn't, the ICE client will ask for its public IP address and if necessary attempt some tricks to work around NAT.  If all else fails, it'll fall back to TURN relaying.
[19:28:50] <Holger> zinid: STUN/TURN via TLS on port 443!
[19:29:31] <Holger> rom1dep: *the ICE client will ask the STUN server for its public IP address ...
[19:29:49] <rom1dep> ok
[19:30:03] <zinid> Holger, yeah... that's crazy
[19:30:10] <rom1dep> so yayh, ultimately, that's one more thing to consider multiplexing over 443
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[20:54:01] <SouL> Holger [20:21]:
> Well that's written in C++.  Not everyone is using a memory-efficient language such as Erlang.
Was that a serious statement or joke? Or maybe both?
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[20:55:07] <SouL> I'm curious about that, as you may already noticed :D
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[20:59:15] <Holger> SouL: Irony. In theory, C++ allows for minimizing memory usage due to the manual management, while people keep complaining about Erlang's usage.
[21:01:52] <SouL> Holger, ah I see, ok. I was wondering, since I have no idea about Erlang. But that complain could be applied to almost all languages heh
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[21:02:56] <Holger> Yes garbage collection will always add some overhead.
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[21:58:38] <zinid> Btw, in fact rust also has gc, just plain stupid reference counting (which is almost not used in other languages, due to performance and loop issues)
[21:59:28] <zinid> So I'm skeptical about "manual" memory management
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[22:06:02] <SouL> Holger, zinid: Are complains about manual memory management and such usually related to bad use of the programming language? The argument here is that since humans can (and do) make mistakes, better avoid ways of mistaking?
[22:07:18] <zinid> Yes, sure, better to avoid them
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