Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Sunday, July 29, 2018< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
Room Configuration
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GMT+0
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[07:07:45] <tester> Nach meinem Serverumzug kann, mit der Backupfunktion von Ejabberd, Backup, Neuinstallation auf dem neuen Server, Einrichtung des ersten Nutzers, einfügen der Config Datei.  Einspielen des Backups,
Es funktioniert soweit alles,    nur einige Nutzer können keine Avatare mehr veröffentlichen und die OMEMO Verschlüsselung funktioniert nicht mehr zwischen allen Geräten.
Ist das grundsätzlich ein Problem bei einem Serverumzug?
Gibt's eine Schritt für Schritt Anleitung?
Danke
[07:12:08] Licaon_Kter leaves the room
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[07:13:13] <tester> Sorry wrong chat
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[07:17:22] <Licaon_Kter> tester: and language
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[07:22:40] <tester> Licaon_Kter: Delete messages would be a nice function for ejabberd  🤔
[07:23:12] <Licaon_Kter> tester: delete from where?
[07:23:53] <tester> Licaon_Kter: like in Whatsxxx, by the user
[07:24:07] <tester> On the Server
[07:24:49] <Licaon_Kter> tester: great..so? I already saw it...it's on my screen...whaat good does that deletion from server now?
[07:32:20] <zinid> Licaon_Kter: troll harder 👍😁
[07:32:49] <zinid> Like we never discussed deletion in XMPP 🤔
[07:35:00] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: _but whatsapp does it....why can't xmpp too?_
Oh well...let's see why...
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[07:36:03] <zinid> WhatsApp is just superior, admit it
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[07:42:19] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[07:42:20] <Holger> XMPP could do this just as good or bad as it does e.g. message correction, of course.
[07:43:28] <zinid> If we don't implement it people will resort to message correction and will correct messages to "(removed)"
[07:43:39] <zinid> Like it's done on websites without posts deletion
[07:43:42] <Licaon_Kter> Eg. Put a toggle "Allow message deletion" with a text under saying "Be aware that other clients can ignore your request for deletion"
[07:43:54] <Holger> An EULA.
[07:44:29] <Holger> WhatsApp users can't be sure the message wasn't read already either.
[07:44:39] <zinid> EULA choices
- Delete messages?
- Leave chat
[07:45:11] <Holger> - Reinstall phone
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[10:01:46] <4223> Buy new phone.
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[12:14:44] <zuglufttier> How will ejabberd behave if a server changes the IP address?
[12:14:53] ta leaves the room
[12:15:06] <zuglufttier> jabber.de changed their hardware and now they have a new IP address.
[12:15:23] <zuglufttier> DNS is pointing to the new IP already.
[12:15:29] <zuglufttier> At least for me :D
[12:15:47] <zuglufttier> Should that just work in the future or will the IP be cached in ejabberd?
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[12:24:51] <Holger> It's cached by Erlang, but IIRC Erlang does respect the TTL.
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[12:25:29] <zuglufttier> OK.
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[12:25:50] <Holger> At least the SRV record. For the A/AAAA record the system's resolver might be used, I forgot.
[12:26:14] <Holger> Gonna check this evening, I had the jabber.de problem as well.
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[12:28:15] <Holger> zuglufttier: Do you know whether the SRV or the A record was changed, or both?
[12:28:57] <zuglufttier> No, sorry.
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[12:34:35] <zinid> zuglufttier, worst case you can set the IP in /etc/hosts
[12:34:51] <zinid> ah, you have updated DNS, sorry, misread
[12:35:26] <zinid> Holger, typically system resolver is used
[12:35:33] <zuglufttier> I don't have connections to jabber.de, so I don't really care. Just wanted to know how ejabberd will behave in this situation.
[12:35:52] <zinid> zuglufttier, if you don't explicitly configure it, by default system resolver is used
[12:35:56] <Holger> zinid: Okay. Well not for SRV, system resolver doesn't support that.
[12:36:33] <zinid> system resolver doesn't support SRV? really?
[12:36:36] <Holger> zinid: I actually fixed a caching bug in Erlang's SRV resolving myself a while back 😉
[12:37:30] <zinid> I don't know, typically `rndc flush` worked for jabber.ru servers flawlessly
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[12:38:29] <Holger> zinid: Well getaddrinfo() doesn't. Dunno whether glibc has some non-standard thing for SRV lookups.
[12:38:43] <zinid> okay
[12:38:46] <Holger> But pretty sure OTP always does it itself.
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[12:40:40] <zinid> ah, right, the system resolver is only used for A/AAAA lookups: https://github.com/processone/xmpp/blob/master/src/xmpp_stream_out.erl#L1176
[12:41:38] <zinid> and for SRV: https://github.com/processone/xmpp/blob/master/src/xmpp_stream_out.erl#L1124
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[12:42:51] <Holger> Thanks. So it would indeed be good to know which record(s) changed.
[12:43:12] <Holger> My spies are already investigating.
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[12:55:15] <zuglufttier> Is it possible to only get the 20 newest messages from MAM instead of all?
[12:56:45] <Holger> The protocol allows this.
[12:56:52] <zuglufttier> And ejabberd?
[12:58:51] <Licaon_Kter> zuglufttier: see mod_mam settings
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[12:59:55] <zuglufttier> Just asking because gajim will currently fetch all mam messages and that can take some time.
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[13:00:29] <Holger> zuglufttier: Yes ejabberd supports this, but yes Gajim fetches everything.
[13:00:56] <Holger> I think lovetox is struggling with this right now.
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[13:06:44] <Licaon_Kter> Holger:
> The delete_old_mam_messages command could be run periodically to make sure the mnesia data won't grow beyond that limit. To support larger archives, sql storage must be used.
So messages are not deleted automatically?
[13:06:57] <zuglufttier> Holger, and his problem is, that you are getting the oldest messages first.
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[13:07:10] <zuglufttier> And they are the least interesting in public muc for example.
[13:09:37] <dion> Does xmpp do calls?
[13:09:50] <zuglufttier> dion, like in telephone?
[13:10:11] <dion> Yep, like voice and video
[13:10:18] <Licaon_Kter> zuglufttier:
```
mod_muc:
...
    history_size: 50
```
[13:10:33] <dion> I should probably just search online but the chat is open so. ..:)
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[13:11:20] <Link Mauve> dion, yes, try Jitsi Meet for instance.
[13:11:31] <zash> dion: yes, the spec is called jingle
[13:11:58] <dion> Is that an xep?
[13:12:31] <zash> Yes
[13:14:39] <dion> OK ill read up on it tomorrow
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[13:18:11] <zuglufttier> Licaon_Kter, that setting is nice but not really suitable if you 2.000 messages in MAM ;)
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[13:22:24] <zuglufttier> This way, all clients will have a very slow startup time if you were not online for a few days. It would be nice to limit the results, so that the client can start quick and fetch older messages if the user is scrolling up or the messages will be fetched in background later on.
[13:23:33] <madmalkav> Happened to me friday when I stsrted Gajim on my home pc first time in months
[13:23:43] <madmalkav> It took 20 minutes to fetch all messages
[13:23:55] <madmalkav> It was like going back to 9600bps
[13:24:20] <zuglufttier> And one CPU is blocked as well.
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[13:24:51] <madmalkav> I thought when the client sincronized and asked for the message history the server would pack all them together, compress and sernd or something , I was surprised about the behaviour
[13:25:27] <madmalkav> But I expected that based in nothing, of course, it is not like I've read the corresponding XEP. Or that I understand XEPs when I read them
[13:26:21] <Holger> Licaon_Kter: That's traditionally MUC history (send the last n messages on join), unrelated to MAM.
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[13:26:41] <zuglufttier> madmalkav, that wouldn't really help. Compressing would make the transfer a bit faster.
[13:26:52] <Holger> Licaon_Kter: Messages aren't deleted automatically, no.
[13:27:11] <Licaon_Kter> Holger: so, which setting then does what zuglufttier wants?
[13:27:14] <madmalkav> zuglufttier: it is not about the comprssiom, but getting to do a single demand and receive everything together I suppose
[13:27:27] <Holger> Licaon_Kter: The nonexistent setting in Gajim.
[13:27:30] <madmalkav> It looks like it ask for a line, get it, ask for the next, ... Lots of overhead
[13:27:32] <Licaon_Kter> Holger: so I'll need a daily cron to delete_mam?
[13:27:55] <zuglufttier> The main problem is, that you cannot retrieve the oldest messages first.
[13:28:09] <zuglufttier> You have to fetch all first to display the oldest.
[13:28:14] <Holger> madmalkav: The client can ask for the last n messages, n is specified by the client. You don't just want to flood a client with thousands of messages.
[13:28:23] <Holger> Licaon_Kter: Yes.
[13:28:57] <madmalkav> But , if the client asked for those thousand of messages , wouldn't it better to serve them alltogether?
[13:29:04] <zuglufttier> Of course.
[13:29:15] <zuglufttier> But better even would be to fetch the last 10 messages.
[13:29:21] <zuglufttier> Takes less than a second.
[13:29:27] <madmalkav> Nah, I want'em all!
[13:29:28] <zuglufttier> Problem solved :D
[13:29:32] <Holger> madmalkav: That's what happens (except that there's an upper limit).
[13:29:37] <madmalkav> I see
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[13:29:59] <zuglufttier> Clients could fetch the rest in the background.
[13:30:14] <Holger> I think lovetox is trying to do just that.
[13:30:20] <Holger> Like Conversations.
[13:30:29] <Holger> But you'd have to talk to him.
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[13:31:27] <madmalkav> Nah I was just curious because the behaviour surprised me, no need to bug people about that
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[13:31:50] <Holger> I meant zuglufttier 🙂
[13:32:05] <madmalkav> Ah, OK 😅
[13:32:11] <zuglufttier> I already asked him :D
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[13:32:26] <zuglufttier> But I see that it's not really easy to solve in an efficient manner.
[13:32:34] <Holger> Regarding "last n messages vs. syncing up the rest in the background".
[13:32:45] <Holger> Yes it's somewhat tricky.
[13:33:07] <zuglufttier> The server could easily provide the message in reverse order.
[13:33:13] <zuglufttier> The server could easily provide the messages in reverse order.
[13:33:30] <Holger> Especially when dealing with corner cases such as losing the connection while the request is running.
[13:33:46] <Holger> zuglufttier: Hehe he asked for that the other day, and then changed his mind.
[13:35:04] <zuglufttier> Yep, the corner cases are really problematic...
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[15:47:20] <rom1dep> Wouldn't it be even better to disable MUC immediate history when there is MAM available?
[15:47:48] <rom1dep> Or is the history only sent upon request by the client?
[15:48:20] <zash> The client can ask for zero history
[15:48:31] <rom1dep> Gajim has been such a mess of duplicated messages that I don't know
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[15:50:52] <Holger> > The client can ask for zero history
Conversations does that, I'd assume Gajim does the same.
[15:54:44] <rom1dep> History should be opt-in these days
[15:55:11] <Holger> This is a non-issue 🙂
[15:55:43] <rom1dep> We should pay by the stanza 😂
[15:57:38] <zash> Myep, Gajim seems to ask for zero ... characters ... worth of history
[15:58:13] <zash> And then it uses MAM
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[15:59:13] <Link Mauve> rom1dep, it’s opt-in, you have to remove an attribute from the join payload if you want some. :D
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[16:03:29] <rom1dep> K
[16:04:38] <rom1dep> So what should be added to MAM to solve all the issues and more?
[16:05:55] <Link Mauve> Which issues are remaining?
[16:07:19] <rom1dep> The whole user-side acceptance test
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[16:08:06] <zash> What?
[16:08:51] <rom1dep> "I get the immediate backlog instantly, a knowledge about the amount I missed, that possibly large amount fast in case of need, a cursor to it"
[16:09:36] <zash> And you think you don't get that?
[16:10:15] <rom1dep> I'd say I'm getting quite the opposite
[16:11:12] <rom1dep> In gajim for instance, what I'm getting first is the oldest, it's insanely slow to come, I ndint know how long it will take
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[16:12:06] <rom1dep> Not saying it's all server's fault
[16:13:05] <zash> I'm pretty sure that's just Gajim
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[16:13:56] <rom1dep> How to get the immediate backlog instantly with MAM?
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[16:14:22] <rom1dep> How do I know the count of messages that I missed?
[16:15:04] <rom1dep> Why so slow ?
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[16:24:25] <Link Mauve> rom1dep, with MAM it’s trivial, just add a <before/> with the stanza-id of the first message you have since the gap.
[16:24:51] <Link Mauve> The count is explicitly approximate.
[16:25:04] <Link Mauve> But it should be enough to display the user a progress bar of some kind.
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[16:26:34] <rom1dep> Seems like it would be good to stream in parallel the last N, the count, and either proceed with full history or not based on the result
[16:27:22] <Link Mauve> The client has all of these information, it can decide what to do just fine.
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[16:33:31] <rom1dep> So mam returns a count?
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[16:38:29] <zash> Maybe
[16:39:05] <zash> That's not what I would care about tho
[16:39:37] <zash> If I was implementing this, I'd just page backwar
[16:39:46] <Link Mauve> rom1dep, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#example-10
[16:39:58] <zash> If I was implementing this, I'd page backwards until I get overlap with history I already have
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[16:40:30] <rom1dep> zash: IIUC you don't get it from that end, comes in chronological order
[16:40:31] <zash> And do it on demand, eg when the user scrolls up, instead of trying to have all history all the time
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[16:40:39] <zash> rom1dep: you are wrong
[16:40:45] <zash> you can page backwards
[16:41:47] <rom1dep> So how do I get "most recent minus 100"
[16:42:47] <zash> whut
[16:42:55] <zash> do you have the last 100 already?
[16:43:30] <zash> if you do, you ask for before=id from first message in that batch
[16:43:59] <rom1dep> I want to show the last 100 now, then start the backlog, and I start without a single id
[16:44:43] <zash> join with maxstanzas=100
[16:45:07] <zash> keep the id of the first message, ask for before=that id
[16:46:03] <rom1dep> Maxstansas is muc history? How about 1:1?
[16:46:31] <zash> uh, if you keep restating the problem, I don't want to help
[16:47:23] <rom1dep> Well, MAM could provide a single, generic answer
[16:47:35] <zash> No
[16:47:36] <rom1dep> But ok
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[16:48:14] <zash> If you keep changing the requirements, you should just go back to the old archiving spec
[16:48:23] <zash> it provides everything you could ever want
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[16:48:47] <zash> except implementations
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[16:49:49] <zash> If you want the last 100 messages, ask with an empty 'before', then request pages until you have 100 messages
[16:50:19] <zash> you can try max=100 in the result set thing, but servers might limit you to less
[16:51:48] <rom1dep> Ok
[16:52:15] <rom1dep> Sounds acceptable
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[16:52:50] <zash> so you might get the last 20 messages, but then you can just ask for the previous page and repeat until you have what you want
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[16:53:32] <rom1dep> BBL
[16:54:13] <zash> Not sure how ejabberds MUC-MAM works, but Prosodys (not yet included in a release) should include the MAM ids in the on-join history, so that can be used for paging later
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[18:48:56] <Holger> So does ejabberd's (and I'd argue it's guaranteed by mam:2), but doing it that way sounds weird to me.  I'd just stick to MAM.
[18:49:47] <zash> It's atomic tho
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[21:40:32] Odin leaves the room
[21:57:46] zinid leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[21:59:47] genofire leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[22:01:45] sindrake leaves the room: Rechner geht in den Ruhezustand
[22:06:29] Dominik Paulus leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:08:01] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:09:20] genofire leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:12:19] genofire leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:17:37] joekokker leaves the room: Machine going to sleep
[22:18:07] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:18:32] alexis leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[22:21:48] Odin leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:24:24] madmalkav leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[22:26:49] rom1dep leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:27:26] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:30:08] targ leaves the room: offline
[22:51:30] Dominik Paulus leaves the room: Machine going to sleep
[22:51:39] aditya_borikar leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[22:57:25] zinid leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:01:05] alexis leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:08:05] zash leaves the room
[23:13:56] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:18:09] Licaon_Kter leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:22:31] sindrake leaves the room
[23:22:43] alexis leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:26:03] Odin leaves the room: Stream closed by us: system-shutdown
[23:30:00] alexis leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:30:51] Odin leaves the room: Stream closed by us: system-shutdown
[23:34:53] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:35:49] frainz leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:36:46] Licaon_Kter leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:38:15] Odin leaves the room: Stream closed by us: system-shutdown
[23:42:28] Odin leaves the room: Stream closed by us: system-shutdown
[23:44:34] spicewiesel leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:45:03] jeremy leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:46:19] Odin leaves the room: Stream closed by us: system-shutdown
[23:48:30] carlos leaves the room
[23:49:16] debalance leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[23:52:20] andrey.g leaves the room
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