Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Wednesday, September 5, 2018< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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GMT+0
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[03:17:57] <aditya_borikar> Link Mauve: is ejabbered supporting shared groups ?
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[04:09:48] <aditya_borikar> Holger: ?
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[04:46:13] <marek> aditya_borikar:
> Link Mauve: is ejabbered supporting shared groups ?
mod_shared_roster might be the thing you are looking for
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[04:58:56] <aditya_borikar> I was using jid of the form xyz@conversations.im and got an error
Error while loading shared groups : XMPPError: service-unavailable - cancel
?
[04:59:44] <aditya_borikar> And conversations uses ejabbered i guess
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[06:02:44] <Licaon_Kter> aditya_borikar: how do you load the list?
You can u#/#/#e webadmin....
[06:02:56] <Licaon_Kter> *use
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[06:13:51] <rom1dep> > How many wrong choices can you make at life to be using Nvidia, VirtualBox, Xorg… /o\
Or, you know, Debian on recent hardware in general 😂
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[06:26:02] <zinid> What is wrong with xorg?
[06:27:03] <zuglufttier> Not much.
[06:27:13] <zuglufttier> It's ancient but it does work.
[06:27:41] <rom1dep> zuglufttier: it works less and less, though
[06:28:23] <rom1dep> Just got a new laptop, Wayland just runs smoother on it
[06:28:32] <edhelas> still works better than Wayland for me :p
[06:28:42] <rom1dep> But no fractional scaling there, so..
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[06:28:55] <zuglufttier> Ubuntu 18.04 has Xorg as default again :D
[06:29:14] <zuglufttier> Fractional scaling etc. is a very nice feature though.
[06:30:20] <zuglufttier> In theory, wayland should be better for everything.
[06:30:45] <rom1dep> Compositors aren't there yet, but catching up
[06:32:36] <rom1dep> Gtk still insists on making hacky the answer to the simple question "should the compositor draw decorations on that"
[06:32:46] <rom1dep> Slowly getting there
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[06:36:05] <edhelas> yup, still painful with Gnome
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[07:52:48] <dion> I run ratpoison on X, and everything happens instantaneously I don't see what benefit Wayland will bring
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[08:00:48] <zuglufttier> dion, try to use two displays, one laptop screen with 4k and an external display with 1080p.
[08:01:07] <zuglufttier> Then you'll have to scale one display and things start to get ugly.
[08:01:29] <zuglufttier> Ratpoison was the wm of choice a few years ago ;)
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[08:01:49] <dion> I heard ratpoison supports two screens pretty well
[08:01:58] <dion> Even though I dont have two screens
[08:02:42] <zuglufttier> It's about scaling.
[08:03:07] <dion> I see
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[08:22:14] <Holger> zinid: Did you try the 'nvidia-driver' package?  Does it help?
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[08:22:28] <zinid> Holger: yes, it helps
[08:22:34] <Holger> Ah, good.
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[08:22:43] <zinid> Now I cannot decide on DE
[08:22:44] <Holger> We've been using it at work for years.
[08:23:24] <Holger> I think part of the reason that Nouveau sucks is that NVIDIA's driver is actually quite good.
[08:23:35] <Holger> Unlike e.g. ATI's.
[08:23:56] <zinid> Yeah...
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[08:24:28] <zinid> I actually was surprised yesterday when I was recommended ati over Nvidia
[08:25:12] <zinid> Regarding DE's: so I looked at gnome, mate, cinnamon and xfce
[08:25:33] <zinid> And except maybe cinnamon all others are ahit
[08:25:47] <mrDoctorWho> Kde?
[08:26:27] <edhelas> KDE is great, until the v3.5 :p
[08:26:42] <Holger> zinid: Gnome tries to be a bit different UI-wise, the rest is basically Windows UI, no?
[08:27:06] <Holger> KDE is a horrible unstable monster these days.
[08:27:07] <mrDoctorWho> Xfce is like gnome 2
[08:27:23] <mrDoctorWho> Dunno, works well for me
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[08:27:56] <mrDoctorWho> I remember I used kubuntu few years ago, and yes, it was horrible
[08:28:04] <SouL> wow, really?
[08:28:05] <SouL> why?
[08:28:16] <zuglufttier> I like gnome 3, xfce is fine as well.
[08:28:25] <mrDoctorWho> But now I'm on Fedora and it's good
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[08:28:36] <zuglufttier> But I like tiling window managers like dwm or spectrwm even better ;)
[08:28:46] <Holger> I admin ~100 workstations next to our servers and KDE is the one thing that falls apart on each and every upgrade.
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[08:28:55] <zinid> Xfce is basically stuck in windows 98
[08:28:57] <edhelas> Gnome 3 is still having performances issues, I'm waiting for 3.30 to see if they fixed things
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[08:29:05] <mrDoctorWho> I use awesome wm at work
[08:29:26] <edhelas> in the end do we need DE, TTY is all we need no ?
[08:29:38] <Holger> zinid: What's wrong with Gnome?  I don't use it myself but so far it looked fine to me.
[08:29:55] <zinid> Holger: cannot use xmonad
[08:30:02] <Holger> Ah!
[08:30:05] <zinid> Also, it's sluggish
[08:30:19] <zinid> Mate and xfce are fast
[08:30:37] <Holger> Hmm k.  Feels snappy on our boxes.
[08:31:12] <Holger> But yes with xmonad it's not an option.
[08:31:32] <edhelas> Holger Gnome 3 is sluggish, especially on Intel GPU, they have some performances issues, moving windows around can consume 20-30% CPU easily
[08:31:42] <Holger> Ok we use NVIDIA :-)
[08:32:01] <zuglufttier> No problems on my intel machines.
[08:32:10] <edhelas> but sure, if you have Ryzen and GTX 1080 well it's okay
[08:32:26] <zinid> Yeah, moving window consumes full core
[08:32:29] <SouL> Holger, do you use some old KDE version or it is up to date?
[08:32:41] <Holger> SouL: Debian stable.
[08:32:54] <SouL> Ahh ok
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[08:33:10] <zinid> So I right now should make a choice on mate or xfce
[08:33:20] <zinid> I am exhausted already with this
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[08:33:43] <Holger> SouL: It's not like it always breaks for everyone.  Depends on settings or whatever.  It's just annoying from an admin point's of view.  When upgrading to the next Debian release, you *know* you'll be busy fixing KDE fuckup for at least some users afterwards.
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[08:35:23] <SouL> I understand Holger :D
I actually moved away from Debian because KDE was horrible in there.
Always bugs that were fixed in versions ahead of mine and would never got into Debian...and yeah...
[08:36:05] <SouL> How is that those workstations use KDE?
[08:36:17] <SouL> I'm happy about that but also curious about that decision
[08:36:32] <Holger> SouL: But one year from now, we'll upgrade to the next Debian version, and that will get today's KDE with all those bug fixes, and I *know* it'll break again :-)
[08:37:27] <Holger> SouL: KDE is one of the four or five DMs/WMs users can choose from.
[08:37:52] <Holger> I'm all for removing that choice, but unlike me, my co-workers try to keep users happy.
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[08:40:43] <SouL> Oh, I see :)
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[08:41:28] <Holger> We also have a hardcore KDE user who keeps compiling bleeding edge KDE which users can choose instead of the old Debian version.  Doesn't really help improving stability either :-)
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[08:44:58] <SouL> That is funny :D
[08:45:10] <SouL> Poor guy haha
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[08:50:16] <Licaon_Kter> > KDE is a horrible unstable monster these days.
Was it ever not? I switched to i3 from it, still using Dolphin (file manager) and Gwenview (imahe viewer) because they're functional. Now I've reinstalled, I don't know the magic spells to invoke them back, the installed packages leave me with an unthemed app w/o icons at best, else a non working app, somehow I need to pull FULLeffingKDE for 2 apps... Ain't nobody got time for that.
So I'm stuck with Thunar (file manager) and Shotwell (viewer), from XFCE...kinda not that good 😐
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[08:59:04] <zinid> Licaon_Kter: I decided to get rid of xfce, seems like the development is mostly stuck
[08:59:22] <Holger> Yeah I think it's dead.
[08:59:30] <zinid> "keep old shit old" is not that good moto
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[09:00:06] <zinid> Seems like mate is the only choice if you want tiling
[09:01:45] <Holger> zinid: What parts of Mate/whatever are you actually using with xmonad?  Just the panel?
[09:02:27] <daniel> What do people use file managers for?
[09:02:36] <Holger> I keep wondering the same.
[09:02:50] <daniel> Is there any task that can't be handled on the command line?
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[09:02:59] <daniel> Thumbnails maybe?
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[09:06:30] <zinid> Holger: file manager, panel, volume control, USB sticks manager
[09:07:29] <zinid> I don't use command line for the sake of command line, only when it's faster then opening a window, browsing it, etc
[09:07:45] <zinid> Volume control is faster with mouse
[09:09:24] <SouL> It is easy to browse something graphical, for me. For instance, if I download a picture, somewhere, I open my  /home/ and I see the picture in Downloads before opening the directory, which is for me really handy.
[09:09:31] <SouL> Easy to spot files with random names
[09:09:42] <SouL> and you see like, pdf files have their own image, etc
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[09:31:10] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: see LXDE or LXQT if your distro has it already
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[10:09:22] <Holger> zinid: Yeah I don't do command line for the sake of it either.  I just asked because depending on what exactly you need I thought just starting some panel instead of a full-blown DE might do the trick (e.g. Polybar?) ...
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[10:29:43] <mtangoo> Hi
[10:32:08] <aditya_borikar> Hi
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[10:32:20] <Holger> Hi
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[10:33:27] <mtangoo> I have this need for Push notification. I need to push the message in my PHP server (as example) and then send to some client who have subscribed for that kind of notification. Then the client will know how to check that in my PHP server and retrieve actual message. So I want to use XMPP to notify the client there is message and give the ID of the message to retrieve from my server.  Can I accomplish that with eJabberd? I saw there is something like that in XMPP extensions but am not sure if eJabbered does support that.
[10:33:53] <mtangoo> I’m new to the game, so sorry if it is already explained somewhere
[10:34:44] <Holger> Android and/or iOS client?  And/or other platforms?
[10:35:28] <mtangoo> application is currently in Android only but would love to use it in other platforms too
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[10:47:25] <daniel> mtangoo: you'd probably use the ejabberd rest api to send a message
[10:47:31] <daniel> To the client.
[10:47:53] <daniel> But it's complicated these days to keep a permanent connection to the xmpp server
[10:48:32] <daniel> You can do it but if you don't have very good reasons for it I don't see the upside of using xmpp as a push mechanism over fcm
[10:48:47] <Holger> Right, I was going to ask why not just FCM/APNS.
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[10:56:00] <mathias> Hello there!
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[10:56:44] <mathias> A newbie question for you: does it seems alright, and in some way, "easy", to migrate an old and outdated Prosody server to ejabberd?
[10:58:30] <mtangoo> holger: because of the requirements. All data including about notifications should remain within the org
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[11:00:52] <Holger> Well as daniel said you'll have trouble keeping the XMPP connection open.  On iOS it's plain impossible, on Android it's getting harder with every release.
[11:01:15] <Holger> So actual XMPP clients typically use FCM/APNS themselves these days.
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[11:16:04] <mtangoo> @holger: @daniel: So how does the FCM magic work with such restriction? Do they use a proprietary kind of technology?
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[11:21:51] <Link Mauve> Holger, zinid, ATI doesn’t exist anymore, and AMD’s free driver is actually worked on by AMD, unlike in the past.
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[11:22:29] <Link Mauve> It is generally better than their proprietary one at performances and features, and is also competitive with comparable Nvidia GPUs.
[11:22:48] <Link Mauve> So, no, it’s not because one driver sucks that the other one is good, it’s because it actually is good.
[11:23:20] <Link Mauve> Developers having access to the freely available documentation about the hardware helps quite a lot, compared to only reversed docs.
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[11:32:00] <aditya_borikar> GetSharedGroup returns an error :
XMPPError: service-unavailable - cancel
[11:32:01] <daniel> mtangoo: no. Keeping a permanent connection to the xmpp server is made difficult due to artifical restrictions enforced by the operating system. Fcm is of course free of those restrictions
[11:32:05] <aditya_borikar> What should i do
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[11:33:59] <Holger> Link Mauve: All I said is that NVIDIA's proprietary driver has always been much better than ATI's, so the degree of suffering was lower for NVIDIA users.  I'm into neither of the dev communities so if you say level of suffering had zero impact on their motiviation then you may well be right.
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[11:34:19] <Holger> But IIRC neither community had any access to specs back then.
[11:34:23] <mtangoo> @daniel:I see. So Google is trying to force us into FCM somehow. I see! Thanks fo your help. I think that’s impossible
[11:35:09] <mtangoo> :aditya_borikar: more details?
[11:37:05] <Link Mauve> Holger, yeah, ATI was to be avoided, just like Nvidia today.
[11:37:30] <aditya_borikar> my jid is xyz@conversations.im and i'm trying to debug spark
.When trying to retrive shared groups i get and error "XMPPError: service-unavailable - cancel"
I assume that conversations uses ejabbered as a server.
[11:39:12] <daniel> If you are talking about xep 104 I don't think we support that
[11:39:27] <daniel> 0140
[11:40:17] <mtangoo> aditya_: also check if your issue isn’t part of
[11:40:18] <mtangoo> https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/828
[11:40:49] <daniel> Or technically it uses pubsub so we _could_ support it. But it's unclear to me what exactly you are talking about
[11:43:36] <aditya_borikar> daniel‎, mtangoo‎  Okay .Let me put it this way. For some reason spark wasn't loading the contact list in my roster. And upon debugging i found out that the loadContact function is blocked by this error .
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[11:44:56] <zinid> mathias: should no be a lot of problems to migrate
[11:45:34] <zinid> mathias: also you can always ask here for help if you run into them
[11:46:18] <mathias> zinid thanks
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[12:30:22] <debalance> !version jabber.rwth-aachen.de
[12:30:25] <Servant> debalance: jabber.rwth-aachen.de is running ejabberd version 18.06-1~bpo9+1 on unix/linux 4.9.0
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[12:34:44] <Steven Roose> !version konuro.net
[12:34:46] <Servant> Steven Roose: konuro.net is running ejabberd version 18.4.0 on unix/linux 3.10.0
[12:35:09] <Steven Roose> Should I upgrade to 18.6?
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[12:42:14] <zuglufttier> Is there a reason not to upgrade? ;)
[12:44:44] <zuglufttier> It has some improvements regarding push messages.
[12:44:54] <zuglufttier> ChatSecure works rather well with it.
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[13:48:09] <Timoffey> Hello, guys! We need some help with our ejabberd server. We have a server with SQL and web-client and iOS client. And we have a trouble with spool. We don't understand propetly XMPP and ejabberd, but I write some ideas from my mind.
1) We have nonegroup dialogs. Only face2face.
2) We have `archive` table in SQL, where our messages saves.
3) We have `spool` table. As I understand, this is table where messages stands when user offline. When user starts beeing online, messages from spool going to him and comes into `archive` from spool.
4) We made dialog Web-iOS. Some messges a doubled. And copy of message marked as another user message. So if Alice write 'hello', she can see
A: hello
B: hello
That messages going trought `spool`. But not all messages going this way and that undependent from offline/online status.
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[14:01:29] <Timoffey> and we see messages from `spool` at the moment of sending, But if it going directly without `spool` in iOS they dispayed only after refresh and requery from SQL
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[14:03:44] <Holger> Timoffey: First of all, the reason the offline `spool` exists at all is that the persistent `archive` didn't exist in the past (and is still not supported by all clients).
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[14:04:12] <Holger> Timoffey: If you have a custom solution that supports mod_mam (`archive`), you could just disable mod_offline (`spool`).
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[14:04:57] <Holger> Timoffey: If disabling mod_offline is not an option, the answers to your questions depend on the ejabberd version you're using.
[14:05:17] <Timoffey> we using last version
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[14:06:57] <Holger> Then this detail is wrong (while it was true for earlier ejabberd versions): "When user starts beeing online, messages from spool going to him and comes into `archive` from spool."  The message is going to both tables immediately when it arrives.
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[14:07:52] <Holger> There's an extension that allows clients to prune the offline `spool` before querying MAM.  If all your clients did that, the effect would be the same is disabling mod_offline.
[14:09:43] <Holger> If all that is not an option for some reason, clients need to be prepared to deduplicate messages.  For incoming messages, the easiest way is using the <stanza-id/> (see <https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html>).
[14:11:00] <debalance> I just noticed that mod_avatar is missing on https://docs.ejabberd.im/admin/configuration/#modules-overview
[14:11:18] <Holger> Timoffey: The remaining problem with ejabberd 18.06 is that there's a bug with setting the <stanza-id/>, you'd need this fix (or wait for the 18.09 release): https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/commit/83e246285.patch
[14:11:18] <Timoffey> OK, we'll try to use your advices. Thanks. I will write here later. Thanks again
[14:12:56] <debalance> btw, the new conversations compliance tester is awesome :)
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[15:20:04] <zinid> debalance, yes, the tester is nice
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[16:21:24] <404> I realized that these generated messages. This is an IOT device. Need some protection from sending a large number of messages. The devices fill the MAM base in a short time.
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[16:22:43] <404> 6000 million records in 6 days
[16:22:58] <404> 6 millions records in 6 days
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[16:25:40] <404> So many messages can be filled even id_serial
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[16:27:11] <404> Not surprisingly, he will drop any Mnesia base
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[16:29:40] <404> Accounts transmit data of counters and other nonsense, which is not the place in MAM
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[16:35:03] <Licaon_Kter> 404: still not ban them?
[16:37:29] <404> Licaon_Kter, I forbade them, but this is not a beautiful decision
[16:38:29] <Licaon_Kter> 🤷
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[16:38:46] <Holger> 404: Why not?  You want to offer your public service to IoT users for free?
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[16:39:44] <Licaon_Kter> 404: your terms of services allow automated systems sending 1000000 messages/day? Maybe there's a paying opportunity there
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[16:40:54] <404> Holger, These devices create a high load on the database. 100 bots = 1 GB message per day. It's only 100 devices.
[16:41:07] <Licaon_Kter> 404: support ain't free, and you need to upgrade from Mnesia to Postgresql 🤔
[16:41:08] <Holger> How does that answer my question?
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[16:42:39] <Holger> 404: No idea why you would want to offer that, but if you do, I would suggest moving them to a separate domain with settings appropriate for IoT usage.
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[16:43:23] <404> Licaon_Kter, I already switched to Postgresql
[16:43:45] <Licaon_Kter> > Not surprisingly, he will drop any Mnesia base
?
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[16:45:44] <404> Holger, Users using IoT ignore these rules. Even after blocking, part of it is returned despite a ban next to the registration post.
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[16:47:00] <Holger> So the question isn't how to rate-limit messages but how to auto-detect and ban them.
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[16:48:05] <Licaon_Kter> 404:
> returned despite a ban next to the registration post.
What does this even mean?
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[16:48:51] <404> To forbid messages it is impossible, I think all the same the limit on their quantity is necessary. This works well for XMPP.JP and M-Link
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[16:49:47] <Link Mauve> mod_firewall!
[16:49:59] <Link Mauve> It’s totally possible, just not implemented in Ejabberd yet.
[16:50:36] <404> For example, a person is unlikely to write 10000 or 5000 messages a day.
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[16:51:07] <Link Mauve> I totally would, and have done it. :p
[16:51:26] <Holger> Haha.
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[16:52:24] <404> Well, if a lot of messages per hour, immediately captcha. This will complicate the spam and make it difficult to overflow the MAM
[16:53:39] <404> Although a more effective daily limit, since at night people usually sleep.
[16:53:50] <rom1dep> zinid: lxqt, you should be able to select kwin as its compositor (that's the only one which isn't total crap), and it supports edge tiling (and more powerful tiling through a kwin script add-on). Then it's just a dumb panel with a menu and tray. Yakuake is a good addition. But then I enjoy some of the convenience of plasmashell around Networkmanager, battery monitoring, dolphin transfer queueing, and it's the same as having a full fledged kde.
[16:53:52] <daniel> At least disable mam for their account?
[16:54:01] <daniel> They probably didn't enable that themselves
[16:54:03] <Licaon_Kter> Even Daniel said
mod_firewall is the one argument that can be made for prosody
Holger: Did ejabberd mod_firewall grow over 10 lines?
[16:55:14] <404> daniel, If you turn off all messages, Conversations and its forks stop working
[16:55:28] <daniel> 404: for that account
[16:55:29] <Licaon_Kter> 404: per account MAM‼️
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[16:55:47] <daniel> They don't use Conversations and iot devices I presume
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[16:57:25] <404> It is easier for me to block them, than to make it harder for each record to turn off MAM.
[16:57:33] <daniel> Also in bird culture it's considered a dick move to send 6m iot messages over a public server
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[16:58:49] <404> If you turn off MAM for all users, Conversations does not receive messages offline.
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[17:01:07] <404> daniel, Now Conversation already at 80% of all mobile users if to consider together with Forks XMPP Messenger + Pix-Art
[17:02:22] <404> Maybe I'm exaggerating, but more than half is exactly
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[17:11:14] <404> By the way, tell me what happens when the counter of a cell id_series is overfilled? (table archive)
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[17:28:57] <404> > It is easier for me to block them, than to make it harder for each record to turn off MAM.
Because they are not real users. 1 counter create a load, like 100 real users. Donate  is done by real users, not counters. They donate to the stable operation of the server, and they pay for the IoT counters
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[18:25:29] <mightyBroccoli> > Also in bird culture it's considered a dick move to send 6m iot messages over a public server
That made my day 😂
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[18:30:47] <404> mightyBroccoli, I could not translate the meaning of this phrase
[18:32:21] <mightyBroccoli> Thats a quote from Rick and Morty, more specific Bird Person.
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[19:02:10] <rom1dep> Damn, that was a good one
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