Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Thursday, November 29, 2018< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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GMT+0
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[08:07:05] <zinid> can someone clarify: so we have whitelist publish model borked?
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[08:33:04] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: Conversations doesn't do something, waits for something else, while ejabberd has "Last PEP notifications aren't sent to PEP node owner" or so.
[08:33:21] <Licaon_Kter> See my ramblings above, yesterday.
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[09:22:47] <zinid> so I guess we cannot release the feature
[09:22:53] <zinid> I mean conversion
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[09:24:52] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: it's an easy fix up or you need to refactor pubsub? :D
[09:25:07] <zinid> :D
[09:25:26] <zinid> I don't know, usually mod_pubsub is never easy
[09:25:55] <Licaon_Kter> Can this be a config issue on my side?
[09:27:41] <zinid> no idea
[09:27:49] <zinid> as I don't even know what the issue is
[09:27:55] <zinid> (I didn't read the backlog)
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[09:47:37] <rom1dep> OK, weird, now that ejabberd has been updated to debian's latest (from testing, backport, whatever it's called there), it seems that my Conversations client cannot connect,
> [warning] <0.2937.0>@ejabberd_c2s:process_terminated:280 (tls|<0.2937.0>) Failed to secure c2s connection: TLS failed: client renegotiations forbidden
Gajim seems OK.
This is Conversations 2.3.8+pcr
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[10:00:49] <Alacer> rom1dep: Hie did you get 2.3.8+pcr... is it beta channel
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[10:39:58] <rom1dep> By syncing against the Beta channel?
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[10:41:01] <Licaon_Kter> debalance: ejabberd is not build against openssl 1.1.1 right? Or better said fast_tls isn't
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[10:41:17] <Licaon_Kter> rom1dep: `no_tlsv13` ?
[10:42:22] <rom1dep> Licaon_Kter: I'd be surprised if this debian has 1.3
[10:42:30] <rom1dep> this is a server I co-admin
[10:43:00] <rom1dep> someone else (with no clue about ejabberd) made a mess while I was looking away (and I have no clue about debian)
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[10:43:15] <Licaon_Kter> * `no_tlsv1_3`
[10:43:43] <Licaon_Kter> in ejabberd config `protocol_options`
[10:43:45] <rom1dep> ```  'TLS_CIPHERS': "HIGH:!aNULL:!eNULL:!3DES:@STRENGTH"
  'TLS_OPTIONS':
    - "no_sslv3"
    - "no_tlsv1"
    - "cipher_server_preference"
    - "no_compression"
```
[10:43:51] <Licaon_Kter> There, yes
[10:44:34] <Licaon_Kter> Add  `no_tlsv1_1` too just formfun
[10:44:38] <Licaon_Kter> *for fun
[10:45:49] <rom1dep> same
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[10:48:56] <rom1dep> apt list openssl
openssl/stable,stable,now 1.1.0f-3+deb9u2 amd64
[10:49:05] <rom1dep> so I doubt it's a 1.3 thing
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[10:51:58] <debalance> Licaon_Kter: in stretch backports it isn't, in sid/testing it is
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[10:54:03] <debalance> rom1dep: what's the version of erlang-p1-tls?
[10:55:03] <rom1dep> erlang-p1-tls/stretch-backports,now 1.0.25-2~bpo9+1 amd64
[10:56:03] <debalance> Looks good.
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[11:14:54] <rom1dep> weird sslh logs:
```
xmpp:connection from A:42257 to B:https forwarded from localhost:55488 to localhost:xmpp-client
flushing deferred data to fd 3
client socket closed
connection closed down
accepted fd 4
```
[11:15:37] <rom1dep> so something/the client is dropping the stream?
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[11:25:31] <Alacer> rom1dep:
> erlang-p1-tls/stretch-backports,now 1.0.25-2~bpo9+1 amd64
Is it working with TLS 1.3
[11:26:14] <rom1dep> seriously, guys, why would you be tempted to think that this has anything to do with TLS 1.3?
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[11:48:33] <Licaon_Kter> rom1dep:
> Failed to secure c2s connection: TLS failed: client renegotiations forbidden
[11:49:13] <Licaon_Kter> Did you put that and reloaded/restart and still errors out?
[11:49:47] <rom1dep> Licaon_Kter: yes, I restarted ejabberd after that
[11:49:56] <rom1dep> which confirms that 1.3 has nothing to do with it
[11:50:27] <Licaon_Kter> Hmmm
[11:51:46] <Licaon_Kter> I mean the tlsv1.3 thing is separate from the sslh one.
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[11:53:42] <rom1dep> I think there is no 1.3 thing at all, openssl isn't 1.3 capable on this box, there cannot be any incompatibility with erlang-p1-tls
[11:54:20] <prefiks> i think this is related to openssl 1.1.0, there is fix in git repo for that
[11:56:09] <prefiks> that would be commit: https://github.com/processone/fast_tls/commit/9b25543cf1200e3b216996598771962461ea51c8
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[12:00:50] <rom1dep> > apt list openssl
> openssl/stable,stable,now 1.1.0f-3+deb9u2 amd64
The commit msg mentions 1.1.1, though
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[12:02:10] <prefiks> i mean that's problem in fast_tls
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[12:14:39] <Licaon_Kter> prefiks: maybe push a release for fast_tls so debalance can update the packages
[12:15:05] <prefiks> yeah will do that today
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[14:21:30] <prefiks> ok, i tagged fast_tls with that fix
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[14:25:35] <Licaon_Kter> Great
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[15:41:35] <debalance> Licaon_Kter‎, that commit is already in the current package, so that can't be it ;)
[15:43:10] <debalance> https://sources.debian.org/patches/erlang-p1-tls/1.0.25-2~bpo9+1/
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[15:50:23] <Licaon_Kter> debalance: then I don't know, in my case I just recompiled fast_tls and that was it. Not sure why rom1dep's issue wasn't fixed then.
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[15:52:18] <Alacer> zinid: https://nats.io
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[16:00:34] <rom1dep> Licaon_Kter: because my issue has nothing to do with your issue which was about TLS 1.3 which I don't even have installed?
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[16:27:11] <zinid> Alacer: great, yet another IM
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[16:43:43] <rom1dep> ok, sorry, I was being an idiot, it does appear that `apt-get install -t testing erlang-p1-tls` did solve the issue
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[16:45:07] <rom1dep> debalance: maybe I wasn't runing the version you thought I was running
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[16:46:12] <debalance> Don't mix stable and testing!
[16:46:49] <debalance> That's what backports are for!
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[16:49:02] <bowlofeggs> i had actually observed issues with TLS 1.3 in Fedora 29 and Rawhide (also openssl 1.1.1), and hadn't had time to debug it to make a useful report yet
[16:49:11] <bowlofeggs> maybe i should try out that new fast_tls version too
[16:50:53] <bowlofeggs> my workaround was to just disable 1.3 in the ejabberd config for now (lazy ☺)
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[16:55:02] <rom1dep> yeah, I still can't explain why no_tlsv1_3 didn't do the trick
[16:55:15] <rom1dep> at least I learned how to adb over wifi in the process
[16:55:51] <rom1dep> and probably more than I hope to know about debian repo configuration soon
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[16:58:51] <Neustradamus> bowlofeggs: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2608
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[17:02:34] <Neustradamus> About TLS 1.3: https://github.com/processone/fast_tls/commits/master
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[17:07:32] <bowlofeggs> yeah i have fast_tls 1.0.25, but i don't have the newest patch that's in 1.0.26
[17:07:58] <bowlofeggs> rom1dep: i found that you do need the latest fast_tls to use no_tlsv1_3
[17:08:08] <bowlofeggs> or mabe you also need a recent ejabberd too (not sure)
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[17:09:06] <rom1dep> I would have expected the config parser to choke on it in case it's not a viable option? zinid ↑
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[17:13:59] <zinid> rom1dep: those options get no validated
[17:14:04] <zinid> I think
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[17:14:27] <rom1dep> ok, then it all makes sense
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[17:20:23] <Licaon_Kter> rom1dep: :roll_eyes:
[17:22:09] <rom1dep> Licaon_Kter:  🙊
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[17:23:45] <Licaon_Kter> We've all been there, with TLSv3 😀
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[18:32:48] <zinid> https://twitter.com/leonschuer/status/1066956715869028353
[18:32:53] <zinid> Licaon_Kter, ^^^
[18:37:41] <daniel> who knew reinventing the wheel was hard
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[18:41:31] <zinid> I actually think about it another way: that's what happen when you take "fancy" tools promoted by big corps (like Python) and try to apply it in a consumer market
[18:42:09] <zinid> my point is: when you have this monster installed somewhere in your centralized datacenter, you can just put more boxes and you don't give a fuck about how much gigabytes it eats
[18:42:36] <zinid> but when you try to do the same on regular sysadmins' servers the stuff suddenly doesn't work
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[18:49:28] <daniel> Or someone sneaks a backdoor into one of your dependencies 😂
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[18:50:04] <zinid> funny how some guy from matrix commented it that "well, we know electron sucks, we will rewrite it soon". Doesn't sound similar? They are talking the same how python sucks and they replace it with Go, LMAO
[18:50:08] <daniel> Unrelated but I believe we haven't had a good laugh about npm in the muc yet
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[18:50:39] <zinid> yeah, that's a funny story :)
[18:51:44] <daniel> And yes Re matrix. So the electron app sucks so they have plans to rewrite that. The server sucks so they plan to rewrite that
[18:51:56] <zinid> daniel, exactly :D
[18:51:59] <daniel> Only a matter of days now until it's usable
[18:52:31] <zinid> coming soon*
* (novemeber 2025)
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[18:54:13] <daniel> And I think even big cooperations have realized that there is a limit to just adding more servers
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[18:54:52] <daniel> That's why rails is dead
[18:55:08] <daniel> Remember rails. Big hype like 8 years ago
[18:55:13] <zinid> even worse, almost nobody knows how to do that :) Even between 10M and 100M users is abyss, totally different technologies should be used
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[18:55:57] <zinid> I personally don't have an idea how to build 100M connections cluster, but I can build 10M cluster
[18:56:23] <zinid> (not to mention 1-2-3 billion, FAANG-like clusters)
[18:57:55] <zinid> yeah, rails was amuzing shit :)
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[19:17:18] <Steven Roose> !version ssaavedra.eu
[19:17:25] <Servant> Steven Roose: ssaavedra.eu is running Prosody version 0.10.2 on Linux
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[19:29:06] <Steven Roose> Enrique : ^^
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[19:37:45] <rom1dep> I want to bash rails and all, but seriously, what's wrong with it? That looks to me like IT done right: a tool that has clear goals and puts as much automation as possible towards achieving them: to the point, hides the repetitive, kills the "unengineered" time.
Any more recent and hyped framework I've come accorss makes doing CRUD apps cumbersome in comparison, I doubt the world outside google/uber/facebook has its need much beyond that, and if big corps sponsor less rails today, it's perhaps because they are more encline to paying smaller corps to do it for them, still in rails, but "in the cloud"…
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[19:42:08] <Steven Roose> Isn't exposing your server version number a vulnerability?
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[19:42:40] <zinid> rom1dep, my main concern is that IT forgot how to write efficient software
[19:42:54] <zinid> rails is a GIL locked slow shit
[19:44:07] <zinid> also, framework sucks
[19:44:19] <zinid> it will take yet another decade for IT retards to understand that
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[19:44:59] <zinid> if you disagree, tell me which framework to choose: vue.js, react or angular?
[19:45:24] <rom1dep> I see from close a SPA being developed in a big corp, I'm not a web developer, I'm even not a developer at all, but do I see that it's basically the same entities being carried over from front to back, and validations being reimplemented at each layer in a different language (Typescript for the front, C# for the API, SQL for the stored procedure). A benign operation on the data model like a column addition is such a PITA that they are avoided as much as possible and there is basically no exploration at that level, let it even to explore better architectures. ROR had scaffolding for views, forms, validations, migrations, so it was basically adding a field + a function and done.
[19:45:50] <Licaon_Kter> 404 brings the sanity
https://mobile.twitter.com/xmpp_server/status/1068011750862262273
[19:46:12] <rom1dep> zinid: I agree with you on performance, but you have to consider that you code in a "privileged" environment where it does matter
[19:46:59] <rom1dep> most business needs is can be summarised as boring storing and retrieval stuff
[19:47:00] <zinid> rom1dep, what do you mean by "privileged" and it does matter?
[19:47:25] <zinid> actually in clouds performance doesn't matter and that's why it is a part of IT degradation
[19:47:42] <rom1dep> 1% of the companies (google, facebook, amazon, …) operate at a scale where it matters
[19:48:20] <rom1dep> so they develop frameworks for themselves, which end-up being misused everywhere because every wannabee google has to put it on its resume
[19:48:25] <daniel> you don’t need to be in the 1% to run into performance issues with rails…
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[19:49:58] <zinid> rom1dep, I only agree about FAANG wannabees, they are annoying
[19:50:08] <rom1dep> daniel: no you don't, but especially if you are not in such a 1% company, you appreciate all the automation that allows you to first deliver a product, and then have time to work on improving its performances
[19:50:09] <daniel> i mean i’m glad rails has made bootstrapping your 1 page view a day scoccer club website easy
[19:50:32] <daniel> but you can’t improve the rails performance
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[19:51:07] <rom1dep> well, if it's at the DB level, you can bypass the ORM, if it's CPU-bound, you can offload to native
[19:51:49] <rom1dep> you still have the GIL, the overhead of the interpreter and the serialization
[19:52:38] <daniel> Yeah optimizing the db level was fun with all these rails developers who had never used sql in their life
[19:52:55] <daniel> But even if you did that. Ruby is slow af
[19:53:02] <rom1dep> daniel: how would you expect them to be any better without rails at all?
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[19:54:21] <daniel> i've worked for many people during the height of the web 2.0 bubble / rails phase. i came to hate the very concept of fail fast / get a mvp to market and worry about shit later
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[19:54:31] <daniel> the entire attitude is flawed
[19:54:38] <zinid> daniel, +1
[19:54:42] <daniel> do something right or don't do it at all
[19:55:36] <rom1dep> daniel: I feel you, I do, and I'm an idealist and a theoretician too, but more often than not, "not perfect" is good enough
[19:55:59] <zinid> I also love how prototyping is annoying, but in reality the prototyped system tends to stay in production FOREVER. And this is the exact thing that Matrix developers don't understand
[19:56:08] <rom1dep> which products did you come across that cannot/musn't be done with rails?
[19:56:09] <zinid> *is promoting
[19:56:36] <rom1dep> and which fraction of them all does it represent?
[19:58:44] <rom1dep> with the project I mentioned earlier, a single person on ROR/django could do in 3 months the the same work (feature parity) as a team of 12 in 8 months
[19:59:24] <zinid> pretty much anecdotical I think
[19:59:28] <rom1dep> I think it's especially bad in this case
[19:59:41] <zinid> did those 12 guys use assembler or what?
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[20:01:35] <bowlofeggs> most software made by companies is optimizing for developer time over user time
[20:01:48] <rom1dep> nah, they used angular, unversioned stored procedure in SQL server (because you can't really version), didn't use any code automation or standardization that could come handy at the boundaries of the API, have bad/no code review processes and overall bad organization
[20:02:04] <bowlofeggs> languages like python and ruby enable developers to get more done with their time than more performance oriented languages, at run time cost
[20:02:56] <rom1dep> bowlofeggs: in my late nights "re-implementations" of this app using django, the bottleneck performance-wise was always the database, never the framework or the language
[20:04:22] <bowlofeggs> yeah for a lot of web apps that will be true
[20:04:28] <rom1dep> the framework/language with all its ecosystem allowed me to not worry about a crapton of boring things like tabular data import, input sanitization, forms generation, …
[20:04:55] <bowlofeggs> i use python in my day job and i love it
[20:05:22] <bowlofeggs> i *don't* love the particular framework i use (pyramid - it's not terrible, it's just not great)
[20:05:26] <Licaon_Kter> rom1dep:
> first deliver a product, and then have time to work on improving its performances
'Cause share holders care soooo much about fixing bugs for the existing users versus adding new feature to get new users
/sarcasm
[20:05:58] <rom1dep> > yeah for a lot of web apps that will be true
and that was my point. I believe most (corporate) web apps are boring AF, gather data, crunch nubers, mail a report every scheduled jobs. Not everyone is google.
[20:07:41] <bowlofeggs> indeed
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[20:08:12] <bowlofeggs> sometimes crunching numbers needs something fast though
[20:08:30] <bowlofeggs> i did a "small scale" number crunching thingy at my last employer and python was way too slow
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[20:09:07] <bowlofeggs> i started in python as a prototype, but later refactored bits of it in C++ (kept using python to orchestrate because that was easier than C++) and got something like a 100x improvement in run time
[20:09:48] <bowlofeggs> that's something else i love about python - it's pretty easy to connect to other languages, so you can implement things that need to go faster in a static language while keeping the rest of your program simple
[20:10:19] <rom1dep> bowlofeggs: yeah, but what the 12 professional devs are hacking together right now is a monster of intricated stored procedures that my single pandas dataframe crushes to the ground in execution time
[20:10:21] <bowlofeggs> that C++ code was something like 5-10x the number of lines of code as it had been in the python implementation, so it was a lot more work
[20:10:41] <bowlofeggs> rom1dep: haha
[20:10:55] <zinid> > in my late nights "re-implementations" of this app using django, the bottleneck performance-wise was always the database, never the framework or the language
LOL, that's why the concept of database on another server + tiny client is doomed
[20:11:05] <rom1dep> and that's the whole spirit, there are fast low-level libs to do the stuff that requires performances, dones't mean everything has to be written in assembly
[20:11:15] <bowlofeggs> yeah
[20:11:21] <bowlofeggs> right tool for the job
[20:11:29] <bowlofeggs> or, tool(s) as the case may be :)
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[20:12:01] <bowlofeggs> i've been playing with rust a bit this year, i really like it for a list of reasons, though it does have pretty wacky syntax
[20:12:11] <bowlofeggs> and it much harder to use than python
[20:12:24] <bowlofeggs> but the compiler time error checking it has is unprecedented
[20:12:27] <bowlofeggs> and that's super cool
[20:12:45] <rom1dep> zinid: what would you propose instead?
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[20:13:23] <zinid> rom1dep, a distributed database or cache built into your "framework"
[20:13:40] <zinid> where read/write access is a matter of a microsecond
[20:14:09] <zinid> and no, keeping cache in redis is not the right way to do things
[20:14:35] <rom1dep> bowlofeggs: I never moved past project euler kind of exercises with rust, for the few projects I needed to do it was either way too overkill, or didn't have the lib support (GUI)
[20:15:09] <rom1dep> zinid: seems written with real-time apps in mind
[20:15:23] <zinid> rom1dep, real-time app = fast app
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[20:15:45] <zinid> that's synonym
[20:16:25] <rom1dep> zinid: my shit is just a glorified progress calculation thing ran across years old data points
[20:16:43] <zinid> > but the compiler time error checking it has is unprecedented
it's a pity I hear this about Rust, because it was the feature of Haskell/Ocaml/others for decades now
[20:16:54] <zinid> it's not a fucking Rust feature
[20:16:57] <rom1dep> db sharding would make little sense, I think
[20:17:13] <zinid> the only feature of Rust is borrowing. period
[20:17:41] <zinid> and I respect this non-standard approach of Rust
[20:18:05] <zinid> rom1dep, sharding sucks, yes
[20:18:55] <rom1dep> and the borrow checker is all about forcing a lot of annoyance and syntax weirdness upon the user just to claim "we have no GC!", but yeah, I can respect that too
[20:19:10] <zinid> rom1dep, borrowing is hard, yeah
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[20:20:50] <bowlofeggs> zinid: i expect you will enjoy https://blog.toggl.com/world-created-programmer/
[20:20:58] <rom1dep> languages-wise I like scala very much because I learn a lot of concepts through it, without the pedantry of the haskellists
[20:22:41] <zinid> I personally don't like scala because it brings nothing new
[20:23:07] <zinid> and I don't care about "solid background" like JVM or "large codebase", really, I don't fucking care
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[20:28:06] <rom1dep> other than it being the only "good" both OO and functional language I've seen, it does have some academic merit (the dotty compiler goes along a new type calculus, DOT), it invents nothing groundbreaking, but all the goodies (higher kinds, path dependant types, monadic for comprehensions, phantom typing, …) are nice in practice and lead to well designed libraries and interesting ecosystem
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[20:28:51] <zinid> > higher kinds, path dependant types, monadic for comprehensions, phantom typing
> without the pedantry of the haskellists
:D
[20:29:17] <zinid> since I don't like OO and monads... well :)
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[20:33:56] <rom1dep> ^^ in haskelland you start by being given a book on category theory to then realize that everyone is bullshitting everyone and has in fact been talking about burritos all along. In scalaland, you do your shit easily mainly ignoring the magic, but then that shit you've seen here and then there clics and you know why it's like this.
[20:35:20] <rom1dep> had I had a CS degree, I could have preferred the burritos path.
[20:35:23] <zinid> I don't need to read a book about category theory, I did that in the university :D
[20:35:43] <zinid> but honestly you don't need to read it to understand monads
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[20:39:05] <rom1dep> exactly, and scala doesn't even have monads (referred as such) in its stdlib at all
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[21:02:29] <zinid> does anyone know what all those google-analytics script doing?
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[21:02:39] <zinid> tracking me to sell shit?
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[21:04:29] <bowlofeggs> yep
[21:04:30] <bowlofeggs> haha
[21:04:46] <bowlofeggs> i use uMatrix to block the junk out of that and to make it really hard to use my web browser :)
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[21:43:13] <srgcdev> In my company we are starting to use angular for web programming. What do you think guys about angular? My company is a big one and I think is not a good idea because angular is evolving very fast and google support versions only a few months
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[22:10:35] <zinid> not sure if trolling, but use Elm :)
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[22:33:25] <Steven Roose> srgcdev: I only used it with Dart. While a bit fragile, I loved the dev experience.
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