Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Friday, March 22, 2019< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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[02:44:19] <tyler> Are there any schemes recommended for getting ejabberd redundancy across geographic regions? I've got a server in ATL that I was wanting to provide a backup for in LA. I note that clustering is not recommended through disparate data centers by the clustering doc.
[02:45:29] <tyler> Already using MySQL for DB, but I understand that only gets you part way there?
[02:45:53] <tyler> Ok with an active/passive setup and failover; But want to minimize impact to users or loss of data.
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[06:46:09] <Licaon_Kter> Contact P1 ;)
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[07:38:48] <kot28> Всем доброго времени суток :)
[07:39:41] <kot28> Нужна помощь, не могу установить ejabberd <https://docs.ejabberd.im> на Win Server 2008 R2
[07:40:11] <kot28> ПРи установлке падает в ошибку " ejabberdctl: C:\Program Files\ejabberd-19.02/bin/erl: can't execute: (216) Error 216 "
[07:40:13] <kot28> это лог
[07:40:19] <kot28> ejabberdctl: C:\Program Files\ejabberd-19.02/bin/erl: can't execute: (216) Error 216
[07:40:23] <kot28> C:\Program Files\ejabberd-19.02\bin\postinstall.cmd
\ќв  ўҐабЁп "C:\Program Files\ejabberd-19.02\bin\erlsrv.exe" ­Ґ б®ў¬ҐбвЁ¬  б ўҐабЁҐ© Windows, а Ў®в о饩 ­  н⮬ Є®¬ЇмовҐаҐ. Џа®ўҐам⥠ᢥ¤Ґ­Ёп ® бЁб⥬Ґ,   § вҐ¬ ®Ўа вЁвҐбм Є Ё§¤ вҐ«о Їа®Ја ¬¬­®Ј® ®ЎҐбЇҐзҐ­Ёп.
ejabberdctl: C:\Program Files\ejabberd-19.02/bin/erl: can't execute: (216) Error 216
[07:40:27] <Holger> Licaon_Kter: :-)  I just meant to say it was proposed to document the mess on an external web site.  Which doesn't help at all I think.  No visibility, and of course it won't be maintained long-run.  Spec consistency should be an explicit goal of the XSF, in my book.
[07:40:51] <Holger> SouL: Sorry you were right in what way?
[07:41:07] <Licaon_Kter> kot28: английский язык пожалуйста
[07:41:17] <Holger> Gesündheit!
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[07:41:59] <Licaon_Kter> Holger: oh..right...why have "an official website" if not used....
[07:43:19] <zinid> > Spec consistency should be an explicit goal of the XSF, in my book.
It's not only in your book, WG was designed in IETF for precisely the same goal
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[07:43:34] <kot28> okey
[07:43:35] <kot28> Good day to all :)
[07:43:46] <zinid> to maintain consistency, goals and .... deadlines!!
[07:43:47] <kot28> Need help, can not install ejabberd on Win Server 2008 R2
[07:44:00] <zinid> kot28, none of us are running windows
[07:44:03] <kot28> When installing, it crashes into the error "ejabberdctl: C: \ Program Files \ ejabberd-19.02 / bin / erl: can't execute: (216) Error 216"
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[07:45:03] <kot28> Only Unix?
[07:45:44] <zinid> yes
[07:46:38] <zinid> the google says: "The error (216) is a general protection fault. It can be caused by just about anything."
[07:46:43] <kot28> Please recommend Unix OS to install "ejabberd". Thank.
[07:47:57] <Licaon_Kter> kot28: debian, ubuntu, freebsd even...whatever....
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[07:48:39] <zinid> Licaon_Kter, and he will install outdated ejabberd version from the repo of those great distros? 🙂
[07:49:11] <zinid> whatever, I would not recommend install ejabberd at all in this case
[07:49:46] <zinid> because Unix administrator's skills are strongly required
[07:49:53] <Holger> zinid: I think the issue is a mix of people not seeing the problem and the procedures making it hard to address it.  I.e. there's no group of people interested in cleaning up, and if there was they'd have a hard time doing so, as changes require XEP author approval.
[07:50:25] <zinid> Holger, well, did you read my rant in xsf@ ?
[07:50:36] <zinid> or maybe that was in council@... whatever
[07:51:01] <Holger> Which one?  I've read many rants of you in those rooms, yes :-)
[07:51:10] <zinid> I suggested just restore the IETF XMPP WG and move the process there
[07:51:16] <Holger> Ah right.
[07:51:19] <Holger> Yeah.
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[07:51:41] <kot28> Which is better to choose Debian or Ubuntu?
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[07:51:58] <zinid> kot28, Debian
[07:52:19] <kot28> Well thank you.
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[07:53:02] <Holger> Well I brought this up several times and virtually nobody sees my point so discussing it probably makes no sense.
[07:53:18] <Holger> (Except maybe Dave who actually seemd to agree, to my suprise.)
[07:53:31] <zinid> yeah, Dave kinda sees the problem
[07:53:40] <zinid> but to polite or something to address it
[07:53:45] <zinid> *too
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[07:59:45] <zinid> Holger, I think the XSF is pretty much pointless now, the only meaningful what's left is 5 council members and the site with xeps
[08:00:00] <zinid> we don't need members or 5 board members for that
[08:00:24] <zinid> also, the process can be turned into wiki, the funniest part 😉
[08:02:36] <zinid> even more so, the council is mostly dormant, the editor does his job once per month, in a batch
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[08:05:27] <Holger> To be fair I think Jonas has been way more active for a while. Would be nice if he managed to find more time again.
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[08:08:00] <zinid> well, I don't blame Jonas or someone, I just state the fact. I absolutely see how he's is lacking of time or motivation
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[08:10:03] <Holger> Right. My point just is, if stagnation is due to missing manpower I have no solution either. The thing that concerns me is that there's not even the *goal* of sorting things out.
[08:12:09] <Holger> But yes if there's really no manpower than goals as such won't help of course. Except Matthew-style to-do lists.
[08:12:30] <zinid> yeah, I think this is pointless
[08:13:12] <zinid> maybe indeed better focus on Matrix 🙂
[08:14:01] <zinid> on the other hand, I don't see how Matrix will win, by attracting more nerds? This is pathetic
[08:14:02] <Holger> kk. I'll just continue adding and never finishing items to my ejabberd to-do list rather than doing the same for a spec to-do list 🙂
[08:14:25] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: maybe lend Matthew for a month at the helm of XSF :))
[08:14:52] <Licaon_Kter> *one caveat, he is not allowed to do "monolihic" anything
[08:14:58] <zinid> Licaon_Kter, I honestly don't like him, his lie, backpedaling, annoyance
[08:15:32] <zinid> so better not to let him come close to XSF 😉
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[08:50:59] <SouL> Holger, I was right about how you think things should be. I wanted you to talk because it is important to see how can we change things if they need to change.
I'm honestly far, very far from you as an expert regarding specifications and implementations, but I hear a lot that we have trouble making (new or not) people to know what and how they should implement, due to some XEP madness going on.
My feeling is that, modernxmpp tries to explain how to work with current status, and you want to fix the current status.
Whatever the approach we pick, I think writing a proposal does not hurt, and if you gather some people to jump in your boat, that would mean the XSF should pay attention to it.
In the end this is how is going to work, I don't see why we should not do things the way you think they should if almost everybody agrees.
I mean, I was not super OK with the badges idea from Ge0rg, but in the end I was going to look up for somebody who could design it, because is what everybody agreed.
I know it is tiring and in the end you are not going to earn 'anything' (material maybe)  about pursuing that goal, but neither do I nor other people.
Maybe not all the community knows what are your intentions, why not writing a page hosted somewhere, explaining what's wrong, what could we do and so on? If there's no success, well you have tried.
I did something like that for the KDE community and they just ignored me, but I'm still here :)
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[09:27:24] <Holger> SouL:
> writing a proposal does not hurt
Well it does cost time and energy, and I feel that will most probably be wasted as I the feedback has shown people generally don't agree with my problem description whenever I bring it up. That makes it hard to motivate myself, I'm just human.
[09:27:37] <Holger> SouL:
> writing a proposal does not hurt
Well it does cost time and energy, and I feel that will most probably be wasted as the feedback has shown people generally don't agree with my problem description whenever I bring it up. That makes it hard to motivate myself, I'm just human.
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[09:28:21] <Holger> We can talk about this at the sprint if you like.
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[09:44:05] <zinid> > writing a proposal does not hurt
Yeah, sure, ever wrote a proposal?
[09:44:17] <SouL> I really understand Holger, and I know this is not the perfect venue for this :)
So sorry for the offtopic!
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[09:44:19] <zinid> I spent four weeks on my proposals
[09:46:02] <zinid> and I think what Holger suggests is not a few hours work
[09:47:02] <Holger> Yes the real thing would be tons of work. And whenever I bring it up I mention that I *am* motivated to help. Just not as long as I'm on my own.
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[09:47:52] <zinid> I don't think anyone will help, none of the recent initiatives gained attentions: new sasl, mix, routing-ng
[09:48:20] <zinid> when it gained some attentions, a lot of them were negative ones
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[09:48:59] <SouL> I know it is not few hours of work, but I would not spend years writing something before any support. I would just write something talking about the overall idea, and discuss in deep afterwards if support is gathered
[09:50:05] <Holger> SouL: BTW off-topic is no problem, I just feel I keep repeating myself, maybe I can explain myself a bit better in real life.
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[09:50:51] <Holger> Then again my vocal English is crap. Probably I just can't explain myself at all 🙂
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[09:51:08] <Holger> Well no drama.
[09:51:15] <SouL> Holger, not true :D If that was true, then welcome to the club! haha
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[09:52:09] <SouL> Holger, whatever what happens in the end, as I said before, I would at least know  your full opinion, yes
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[10:12:24] <zinid> > I was not super OK with the badges idea from Ge0rg
Oh, missed that. Yeah, that's LMAO. I'm also not sure how this goes in line with "oh, we're just a standards body"
[10:14:00] <zinid> I don't see why would ProcessOne attach any of those bages to its site, that's just so childish.
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[10:18:37] <zinid> that reminds me some joke:
- Hey, let's bathe a horse in champagne!
- But we don't have neither horse nor champagne...
- Okay, let's just douche the cat with beer
[10:19:31] <flow> Holger, I believe the missing manpowerissue is at least reinforced by the way the XSF is designed and run: Like overzealous bureaucratic, overanxious and to some part dominated by a clique
[10:20:03] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: progress has been made
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[10:24:54] <zinid> Licaon_Kter: what progress? 😂
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[10:31:42] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: any progress...
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[10:37:34] <SouL> flow, would like to know more, what do you see is wrong, etc
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[11:21:31] <flow> SouL, it's complicated™. And I since I don't have a good solution I avoid talking to much about it. And I have made my peace with the XSF main purpose being the hoster for the XEPs and organizing the submit.
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[11:23:01] <flow> I still believe that a discourse instance would be very beneficial and positive for the development of XMPP. I am not even talking about that instance being used eventually as replacement for the mailing lists, although I would support that.
[11:24:08] <flow> But most changes you suggest to the XSF will cause at least one person's resistance. And since the XSF is heavily veto-driven, it is hard to change anything
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[11:41:08] <SouL> flow: I'm pro-forum for mailing lists, and at least goffi also thinks that so 3 people to start with! I understand what you are saying though, but I still believe something can be done regarding that veto-driven part
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[11:44:33] <SouL> Thanks for your input flow, I like to hear everybody
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[11:54:31] <zinid> flow: typically you will see resistance from all board members, I think they somehow ended up with the people of the same mentality and when you oppose you will be attacked by the whole XSF simultaneously, which renders discussion useless, because you basically need to resist to Gish Gallop.
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[11:57:13] <zinid> SouL: if you want to know my opinion, they should stop that shit with Tone Policing. Especially when they don't conduct it themselves: last time they said I was kicking and crying when I was opposing. After which I just left the conference, these are just double standards
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[12:01:20] <zinid> Also note that I have no problems with Council at all.
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[12:13:02] <tyler> Error 500: too many users. Niiiiice.
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[13:14:55] <MattJ> zinid, just me and SouL? Good to know :)
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[13:56:43] <zinid> MattJ, wut?
[13:57:18] <MattJ> We're both board members
[13:57:59] <MattJ> Voluntarily trying to do our best(TM)
[13:58:06] <zinid> MattJ well I don't see how your position is different from Guus' and Ralph's
[13:58:20] <zinid> we're the standards body (TM)
[13:58:24] <zinid> then creating badges
[13:58:25] <zinid> wtf?
[13:58:45] <zinid> would be great to see some consistency
[14:00:48] <zinid> I told that already, even the IETF WG have *goals* and *deadlines*
[14:00:52] <zinid> you have none
[14:01:40] <zinid> and I don't care about badges and meetings, you can do them every day if you like as long as you have goals and deadlines
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[14:03:30] <MattJ> Badges began as a request from a community member, another in a bunch of people have proposed this over the years. The question was put to the board, we decided it wouldn't do any harm to have some designed
[14:03:39] <MattJ> I'm not really sure why it's a big deal
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[14:04:04] <MattJ> If we said "No! No way are you having badges!" it would just be more evidence of us blocking progress, etc.
[14:04:07] <zinid> badges is not a big deal per se, it's important in context
[14:04:37] <zinid> well, according to your official position "we're just a standards body" yes, you should have said "no"
[14:05:11] <MattJ> Many standards bodies have logos for their specs or whatever they produce
[14:05:20] <zinid> yeah, sure, I see
[14:05:37] <zinid> whatever, have fun
[14:06:38] <MattJ> For the record I'm probably one of the most vocal people telling people not to depend on the XSF for anything other than publishing XEPs
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[14:07:30] <MattJ> This began when I was working on some project years ago, and it turned into a big debate at one of the US summits about whether it should be done or not (I can't even remember what it was, now)
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[14:07:50] <MattJ> Some people were very opposed to the XSF doing it, probably because of the old "neutrality" thing
[14:08:03] <MattJ> I decided whatever, it would just be a non-XSF project, I don't care
[14:08:31] <MattJ> and I highly recommend others to do the same whenever the XSF is more of an obstacle than a help
[14:08:39] <MattJ> (which is many times)
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[14:09:57] <MattJ> Since that time I've had a very negative view about getting the XSF to be anything more than... I actually laughed at your phrase last week... "a very slow wiki"
[14:10:28] <MattJ> I think it's a little more than that, but it's a high level description for sure :)
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[14:12:17] <zinid> I think this boils down to the lack of the goal. Maybe it's better to focus on improving submitting process? Stop copying outdated IETF process, run a wiki?
[14:12:44] <zinid> rather than creating badges, meetings and annoying customers asking to promote xmpp?
[14:14:26] <MattJ> Is the submission process that broken?
[14:14:32] <zinid> and btw, forum instead of mailing lists would be great
[14:14:52] <MattJ> Forum vs. mailing lists is an unfortunate community split (across many projects I'm involved with, not just the XSF)
[14:15:02] <zinid> I mean to change submitting processes radically, like pushing to wiki directly by the author
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[14:16:25] <zinid> and the submission process is broken in the sense that it's slow as hell
[14:16:34] <MattJ> Once a XEP is accepted, the author is actually free to make any changes they like. If a PR is too much then probably it's best to just host it elsewhere until you're fairly happy with it
[14:17:25] <zinid> > just host it elsewhere
exactly the problem Holger has outlined above
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[14:19:36] <MattJ> I'm not really sure what that was, in this context
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[14:19:56] <MattJ> If it's "I have nowhere to host it" then there is already wiki.xmpp.org or numerous third-party places like Github
[14:20:45] <zinid> can't I just push xep-xyz.xml and it will be rendered instantly on xmpp.org/xeps page?
[14:20:52] <zinid> is it rocket science?
[14:21:17] <MattJ> You make a PR, as in most open-source projects
[14:21:28] <MattJ> It's not rocket science, no
[14:21:30] <zinid> well, I made a week ago, it's still not merged
[14:21:59] <MattJ> That comes down to the volunteer issue, there is only 1-2 people who manage that and they are sometimes busy
[14:22:17] <zinid> no, it comes down to automation without involving precious human resources
[14:22:35] <zinid> since you're limited, you find a compromise
[14:22:35] <MattJ> I don't know any open-source project that automatically merges PRs
[14:22:47] <zinid> as long as I'm the author?
[14:23:01] <MattJ> I think we could probably discuss that, if we can find a way to automate it
[14:23:10] <zinid> would be great
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[14:27:08] <MattJ> I added it to the agenda for the next meeting
[14:27:11] <MattJ> https://trello.com/c/n7Ict2oA/341-automatically-merge-prs-from-xep-authors-to-experimental-xeps
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[14:28:49] <MattJ> Thanks for the suggestion
[14:28:55] <zinid> thanks a lot
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[14:31:10] <SouL> Thanks MattJ!
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