Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Wednesday, August 21, 2019< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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[05:54:43] <Holger> nz: Yes, if your link has low latency and never splits, it will of course work, as it basically behaves like a LAN link. Problem is, WAN links often don't, and if they don't, the cluster easily introduces more service fuckup than it avoids. So this is nothing I'd blindly recommend.
[05:56:57] <Holger> nz: The communication is not encrypted, and there's only the .erlang.cookie authentication. Unless you set up http://erlang.org/doc/apps/ssl/ssl_distribution.html …
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[06:17:37] <ta> So basically ejabberd is not intended to be setup in a cluster in different regions of the world and on different datacenter providers, for absolute fault tolerance?
[06:19:02] <ta> or is it just not encouraged because wan links tend to be more faulty than lan, but done anyways by large customers?
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[06:29:12] <Holger> ta: There's some geodistribution support in the Business Edition which customers would usually use. I was talking about the Community Server's clustering support.
[06:31:20] <ta> Okay, that makes sense business model wise
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[06:49:03] <twerf> ta: It's actually my biggest concern about ejabberd. Something is open source, but what actually is a selling point will never make it into the community version.
Really sad for projects without a lot of budget. Also makes "open source" kind of misleading in the term of the mindset.
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[06:54:23] <ta> i don't like if projects (well, products) are tied to much to one company as well.
[06:54:49] <ta> but better open source, than closed source products.
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[07:02:14] <Holger> twerf: As far as I can see, the $$$ features are those that are mostly just interesting to large customers with usually closed setups (e.g. built-in APNS/FCM support which only makes sense if the server operator has full control over his clients). Another such "feature" is that the code is usually based on older versions of the Community Server in the sake of stability.
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[07:02:42] <Holger> twerf: I'm not aware of a $$$ feature that I'm missing on my public servers. Are you?
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[07:05:40] <Holger> ta: I see your point, but I think it's mostly just tied to the company as nobody else chimes in and forks the Open Source code. Except MongooseIM, where the license doesn't permit Erlang Solutions to offer a $$$ edition, but nevertheless they're less community oriented than p1.
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[07:06:42] <Holger> > forks
Or simply contributes, of course 🙂 Unlike Erlang Solutions 😜
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[07:08:51] <zinid> > i don't like if projects (well, products) are tied to much to one company as well
for niche products like an xmpp server I think there is no other choice
[07:09:01] <ta> it's more an idealistic point of view. of course several companies contributing to one project would be perfect, but market/managers dont work that way :)
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[07:10:31] <Holger> Either way I see no point in blaming commercial vendors for trying to make money out of Open Source products. If they'd fail the Open Source product wouldn't be more but (way) less feature-rich, or plain wouldn't exist. Similar to Conversations.
[07:10:39] <zinid> the only true way for opensource to dominate is donation-based model, but it's not popular at all among nerds
[07:10:54] <Holger> If anything blame vendors offering proprietary software 🙂
[07:10:59] <ta> zinid, Holger i am perfectly fine with the way it is. I see the struggles of niche solutions. Also there are projects where i am much more sceptical about this situation than ejabberd being developed mainly by p1.
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[07:11:42] <Holger> And yes the real thing to blame is the market game, but the players.
[07:11:50] <Holger> And yes the real thing to blame is the market game, not the players.
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[07:13:48] <zinid> it's also funny to see how nerds want OSS to compete with $$$ but don't want to put a penny into it: everyone else must create a great OSS project for them and they will use it for free and without any restrictions 😀
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[07:15:10] <zinid> all those cries about how Facebook is crap and OSS alternatives are weak and doing everything wrong to compete with Facebook 🙂
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[07:20:45] <Licaon_Kter> It's the chicken&egg problem: they don't stick around so nobody cares, if nobody cares it doesn't get better, hence users don't stick around...in circles...
See yesterdays Dino MUC chat, _"oh, no threading? That's why nobody uses this"_
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[07:23:17] <zinid> Licaon_Kter, but with Matrix it's different: so many hipe, webshits from HN are orgasming, and still only donated 3k$ or so 🙂
[07:25:08] <Licaon_Kter> We laugh ...but the whole _"the feature X will be implemented soon™"_ makes users stick...,hence moar users moars $$$
[07:25:37] <Licaon_Kter> We need more _"coming soon to this XMPP client"_ slides ;)
[07:28:07] <Licaon_Kter> Eg. User comes and asks about reactions?
_"Oh yes, there's already a draft XEP and two clients have started implementing it"_
A/V? _"yes, jingle was announced, early 2020"_
_"threading? We were discussing it yesterday, the UX needs some polish"_
[07:28:20] <Licaon_Kter> So on...
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[07:30:11] <Holger> Just yesterday someone kindly offered (me) helping Daniel out with ideas about what to implement 🙂
[07:30:39] <Holger> Because Daniel sits all day at home, bored, waiting for users telling him what to do, finally.
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[07:33:38] <Licaon_Kter> Not sure you got my point....all these "features" that users ask are already in a XEP or implemented in some client.
Saying, _"feature X suxxx"_ makes users go away, they take it personally, they think you mean: _"you dumb user, you sukkk"_
[07:33:39] <zinid> 😀
[07:33:56] <ta> private customers are a problem. They get pampered by big companies since decades and now think everything must be free and software x should be happy to be used by them.
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[08:00:49] <ta> businesses are not that much better. my colleages rant about there shitty libraries the company paid for and they have to use, but oss alternatives are assumed to be bad by default because "if it's free, it can't be any good"
[08:02:22] <ta> of course it's not free. you just pay in another way. either contribute yourself or pay someone else (e.g. for support).
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[09:44:57] <Holger> Licaon_Kter: Do you use BOSH with your up-to-date server?
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[09:46:16] <Holger> Converse.js times out trying during authentication against ejabberd master for me, with basically the same setup that works against 19.05.
[09:46:30] <Licaon_Kter> Switched to WS a while ago, zinid lied that it is better
[09:46:31] <Holger> Converse.js times out during authentication against ejabberd master for me, with basically the same setup that works fine against 19.05.
[09:46:33] <Licaon_Kter> :)
[09:46:39] <Licaon_Kter> Why U no WS?
[09:46:43] <Holger> Ah, with Converse.js?
[09:46:45] <Licaon_Kter> It has SM already...
[09:46:47] <Licaon_Kter> Yup
[09:46:59] <Holger> I plan to switch, I just didn't trust their SM code yet.
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[09:47:38] <Holger> Usually takes clients at least one or two years to fix the initial SM bugs (and Converse.js already had some) 🙂
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[09:48:26] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> If no one tests....how can he fix the bugs?
[09:49:04] <Holger> I tested so many SM implementations, now it's someone else's turn!
[09:49:05] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> I report anything I see, but some issues need domain knowledge
[09:49:13] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> :+1:
[09:49:28] <Holger> Plus someone must test our BOSH code 🙂
[09:49:30] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> 👍
[09:50:01] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> eh...really....it didn't see any difference...but then agin I wouldn't know where to look
[09:50:25] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> can I have BOSH on 443: SSLH->NGINX->ejabberd?
[09:50:38] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> Or I need SSLH->ejabberd ?
[09:50:49] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> eh...really....it didn't see any difference...but then again I wouldn't know where to look
[09:50:55] <Holger> Plus with BOSH you can play that single sign on trick which I'm not sure yet how to do with WS.
[09:50:56] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> Or do I need SSLH->ejabberd ?
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[09:51:27] <Holger> But other than that zinid is of course right that WS is nicer.
[09:51:57] <zinid> BOSH has huge overhead due to maintaining its own message queue
[09:51:59] <Holger> Well Nginx should be able to play the sslh game.
[09:52:03] <zinid> also HTTP headers overhead
[09:52:12] <Holger> Yes sure.
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[09:54:14] <Holger> Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]: Anyway if you have a web server accessible on 443 already the sslh thing is already solved of course, so you could also offer BOSH. But I'm not talking you into it, I was just curious. Stick to WS.
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[09:57:09] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> I'm thinking to drop SSLH anyway, to try haproxy
[09:57:25] <Holger> Fancy!
[10:01:07] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> One reason to use SSLH is to allow users to bypass corp firewall
so using nginx+ngxmodupload yields this issue https://github.com/yrutschle/sslh/issues/228 so now I'm yet again using ejabberd for uploads
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[10:05:52] <Holger> Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]: With "Nginx playing the sslh game" I meant this: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages/XEP-0368#nginx
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[10:28:05] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> Yeah, I know it can, I have some bookmarks somewhere, maybe I'll drop sslh and use nginx straight.
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[11:35:02] <nz> > nz: Yes, if your link has low latency and never splits, it will of course work, as it basically behaves like a LAN link. Problem is, WAN links often don't, and if they don't, the cluster easily introduces more service fuckup than it avoids. So this is nothing I'd blindly recommend.
Ok
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[11:42:25] <nz> > nz: The communication is not encrypted, and there's only the .erlang.cookie authentication. Unless you set up http://erlang.org/doc/apps/ssl/ssl_distribution.html …
Great resource thanks
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[12:00:03] <Steven Roose> If a Client announces an OMEMO key, how is it decided how long it remains in the device list?
[12:00:07] <Steven Roose> Does the client announce a TTL? Is that a global server policy?
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[12:01:05] <Holger> The server won't touch it at all.
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[12:01:25] <Holger> Conversations tries to clean up the nodes of unused devices after two weeks.
[12:01:40] <Holger> I'm not aware of other clients doing that.
[12:03:16] <Licaon_Kter> Holger: CS would do something bad after a while too :))
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[12:03:27] <flow> Holger, how is "unused" detected?
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[12:03:58] <Licaon_Kter> Last update iirc
[12:04:11] <Steven Roose> Holger, Dino considers a device "unused" if it's no longer in "the device list" of the user. So where does that device list come from?
[12:04:18] <Steven Roose> Doesn't the server store a device list per user?
[12:04:23] <flow> Hmm I'd expect last time message received from device or something
[12:04:41] <Holger> flow: Dunno, I would've guessed "last OMEMO-encrypted message" as well.
[12:04:42] <flow> Steven Roose, the device list is managed by the devices
[12:04:50] <Steven Roose> I don't know exactly how the PEP OMEMO key getting protocol works, though.
[12:05:11] <Steven Roose> flow, are you saying that clients are taking other clients' keys out of the list?
[12:05:25] <flow> Steven Roose, appearantly conversations does that
[12:05:47] <Holger> https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3499
[12:06:07] <flow> and two weeks seem pretty short, otoh, since devices are not first class citiziens in xmpp (yet), it is hard to come up with a good solution
[12:06:14] <Steven Roose> My scenario:
I logged into an old client on my gf's laptop
Dino had the key of the device as "unused"
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[12:06:38] <Holger> flow: Indeed.
[12:06:46] <Holger> Steven Roose: Yes, add a thumbs up to the issue or something.
[12:06:50] <Steven Roose> Ok wow, Conversations should definitely not do that 😕
[12:07:15] <Holger> I complained to Daniel as well, he was going to think about other solutions.  E.g. asking with a pop-up before ditching.
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[12:14:20] <Steven Roose> A config option would be enough for me, no need to bother the user.
[12:15:09] <Steven Roose> An amendment to the OMEMO protocol to have the clients themselves decide their TTL would be better, of course, but that seems overkill 😀
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[12:17:47] <Steven Roose> What seems like a reasonable timeout?
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[12:17:55] <Steven Roose> I'm thinking of PRing a change to 3 months.
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[12:22:51] <Steven Roose> Someone in the issue mentions people that have multiple homes [with desktop computers in them].
[12:23:23] <Steven Roose> I mean ideally the server should be responsible for this using an account-wide TTL for keys.
[12:23:42] <Licaon_Kter> At the rate Converse.js makes keys...we need some sort of timeframe
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[12:31:42] <flow> Steven Roose, the timeframe doesn't matter, but senders should be able to determine when a recipient device was last online and use that information to decide if they want to encrypt to the device or not
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[12:34:17] <Holger> Steven Roose:
> usually if a client goes offline indefinitely, the key gets destroyed with it
That part isn't true though (who would destroy it?).
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[12:47:39] <Steven Roose> The OS uninstalling the app.
[12:48:22] <Holger> That won't trigger the app to connect and clean up PEP nodes, no.
[12:48:30] <Steven Roose> Holger, clients that go black are most oftenly uninstalled, right? Or devices stolen and factory reset.
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[12:49:12] <Holger> You lost me.
[12:49:23] <Holger> "go black"?
[12:49:39] <Steven Roose> > That won't trigger the app to connect and clean up PEP nodes, no.
I didn't mean destroy in the PEP node, but just inaccessible so they can't be used to leak information. Arguing that apart from the CPU cycles you spend encrypting for that key, there is little harm in the key sticking around in the PEP node for a while longer.
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[12:56:56] <Holger> Ah. Well I think Daniel's point is mostly that if your contact accumulates keys by reinstalling apps or using web clients, you don't want to see an endless list of keys. If you know he's really just using two devices you should see two to make it easier to verify things.
[12:57:48] <Steven Roose> Hmm, if that is his concern, I would suggest showing the "last time used" date next to the key and ordering them by most recent first.
[13:00:26] <Steven Roose> https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3523
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[13:02:08] <flow> that sounds sensible
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[18:51:49] <poVoq> Maybe a stupid question, but since ejabberd can have a shared rooster, is there also something like a shared MUC bookmark list? Or some easy way to invite XMPP users to a group that is composed of multiple MUCs?
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[19:15:06] <Licaon_Kter> Shared roster is fragile as it is...
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[19:17:20] <poVoq> in general, does any XMPP server support something like teams or groups?
[19:18:13] <poVoq> shared roosters seems the closest, but it is only for 1:1 contacts
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[19:54:46] <Licaon_Kter> poVoq: https://github.com/processone/ejabberd-contrib
`mod_default_rooms`
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[20:04:07] <poVoq> nice, that's a start.
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[20:34:06] <nz> Holger: I still think having a local cluster maybe with dual internet uplink is much better than having a single server as downtime is inevitable in the second case. Looking into clustering crypto per your link.
[20:35:17] <nz> Licaon_Kter [cnvrs], Licaon_Kter: the way I do it is xh.domain.tld -> SSLH -> localhost:5443 so that xh.domain.tld/ws works over 443
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[20:37:08] <nz> I do also use nginx reverse proxy so that domain.tld/ws -> localhost:5443/ws so that when accessing converse over Tor you only need to accept the self signed TLS cert of the initial page and the WS connection works behind the scenes, because if you change even just the port you'd have to manually re-accept a SS cert once again
[20:37:35] <Licaon_Kter> Same here, but sslh has an issue with uploads, scroll up,,.
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[20:40:51] <nz> > I'm thinking to drop SSLH anyway, to try haproxy
Exact same thing here, was thinking the same 3 days ago, if you accomplish anything and would like to share I'll do the same anyway if it can be of help
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[20:42:29] <Licaon_Kter> I really don't need that...no crazy clustering for me lol, so I'll see about removing one daemon first, and use nginx first
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[20:43:40] <nz> Talking about sslh to haproxy migration, nothing to do with clusters
[20:43:54] <nz> Never had any issue with uploads over sslh but will keep an eye out for them
[20:44:15] <nz> My question is how do I perfectly replicate sslh on haproxy and it's taking me quite some time to figure it out
[20:45:00] <nz> And since you're the gist man out there, I'm just saying, I could really use some shared code ;]
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[20:48:01] <nz> Or even better , how do we merge Holger's link about nginx doing things instead of sslh and haproxy
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[20:48:23] <nz> Or even better , how do we merge Holger's link about "nginx doing things instead of sslh" and haproxy
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[21:22:54] <Licaon_Kter> Why merge? use one or the other for multiplexing.
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