Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Sunday, October 20, 2019< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
Room Configuration
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[03:03:11] <Alacer> > https://blog.process-one.net/ejabberd-19-09-1/
zinid: Thanks at least some Dumb Admins won't have to worry much......
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[04:08:52] <multixmp> What are the min ports needed to run  an ejabberd server  ??
5222 (TLS) 5269 (Server/client connections)
User guide not specific on these:
Are 80, 5280, 5266 needed ??
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[04:09:15] <multixmp> What are the minimum ports needed to run  an ejabberd server  ??
5222 (TLS) 5269 (Server/client connections)
User guide not specific on these:
Are 80, 5280, 5266 needed ??
[04:09:33] <multixmp> What are the minimum ports needed to run  an ejabberd server  ??
5222 (TLS) 5269 (Server/client connections)
User guide not specific on these:
Are ports 80, 5280, 5266 needed ??
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[04:48:58] <zinid> multixmp: just take a default config, all needed ports are configured there
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[04:50:47] <zinid> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/processone/ejabberd/maint-19.08/ejabberd.yml.example
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[04:51:29] <zinid> except 1883, it's mqtt, you don't need that
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[05:52:08] <ThUnD3r|Gr33n> !version emevth.no-ip.biz
[05:52:12] <Servant> ThUnD3r|Gr33n: emevth.no-ip.biz is running ejabberd version 19.08.36 on unix/linux 4.19.62
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[05:52:18] <ThUnD3r|Gr33n> Time to update
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[06:00:02] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp:
> Are MUCs on a private ejabberd server Omemo encrypted by default  ?
No, each client needs to toggle that on
[06:01:39] <multixmp> Thanks
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[06:02:36] <multixmp> Thanks
Is there a way I can check the raw messages sent from
Conversations client  ->
ejabberd Server ->
Conversations client
to validate the text messages are in fact  'encrypted'  ??
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[06:14:28] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: look in the server database....
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[06:17:14] <multixmp> Some pointers on how to view / access ?
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[06:38:15] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: what database? Mnesia or postgresql or mysql or sqlite??
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[06:44:51] <multixmp> Mnesia
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[06:48:07] <multixmp> ISSUE
Pretty standard test case I would expect ejabberd and Conversations should handle
Ejabberd Server v19.09.1
Client 2 offline
('Server side archiving pref = 'never')
Client 1 sends msg
Client 1 gets 'delivery failed' confirmation (red text)  7 mins later
Is there a ejabberd server setting that could be contributing to this ?
[06:49:29] <multixmp> ISSUE
Running through standard test cases to test the reliability of Ejabberd & Conversations
Pretty standard test case I would expect ejabberd and Conversations should handle
Ejabberd Server v19.09.1
Client 2 offline
('Server side archiving pref = 'never')
Client 1 sends msg
Client 1 gets 'delivery failed' confirmation (red text)  7 mins later
Is there a ejabberd server setting that could be contributing to this ?
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[06:49:49] <multixmp> ISSUE
Running through standard test cases to test the reliability of Ejabberd & Conversations
Standard test case I would expect ejabberd and Conversations should handle
Ejabberd Server v19.09.1
Client 2 offline
('Server side archiving pref = 'never')
Client 1 sends msg
Client 1 gets 'delivery failed' confirmation (red text)  7 mins later
Is there a ejabberd server setting that could be contributing to this ?
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[07:03:05] <zinid> I cannot read that, sorry
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[07:05:08] <zinid> why prefs are configured 'never'?
[07:05:22] <zinid> seems like you configured that manually in Conversations
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[07:06:08] <Holger> multixmp: What are your mod_stream_mgmt settings?
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[07:07:42] <Holger> multixmp: And is the recipient using multiple clients?
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[07:20:37] <multixmp> Holger:
> why prefs are configured 'never'?
> seems like you configured that manually in Conversations
Yes in Client 1
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[07:25:29] <multixmp> Holger:
> multixmp: And is the recipient using multiple clients?
No, both Client 1 and Client 2 are both using Conversations and no other clients
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[07:30:58] <Holger> Try if you can reproduce the problem with:
```
modules:
  mod_stream_mgmt:
    resend_on_timeout: true
  # â€Ķ
```
[07:30:59] <multixmp> Holger:
> What are your mod_stream_mgmt settings?
I have not amended the standard install
.yml file
'Resend on timeout: if offline'
[07:32:11] <Holger> If you don't want to support multi-device usage (otherwise you'd want to enable MAM), try `true` instead of `if_offline`.
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[07:36:39] <multixmp> How do I know if MAM is enabled ?
Is MAM the 'archive option' the Client can select ?
What does 'true' option do instead of the standard 'if offline'  for mod_stream_mgmt ??
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[07:40:55] <Holger> > How do I know if MAM is enabled ?
> Is MAM the 'archive option' the Client can select ?
Yes. Or just disable mod_mam if you don't want to support MAM for any user.
> What does 'true' option do instead of the standard 'if offline'  for mod_stream_mgmt ??
Long story. The option is described in the docs, and here's a more verbose explanation: https://www.ejabberd.im/faq/tcp/
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[07:52:17] <multixmp> I looked at the .yml
I am new so don't want to break my install
How do I disable MAM on the ejabberd  server   ??
[07:52:41] <multixmp> I looked at the .yml file and can see the MAM section
I am new so don't want to break my install
How do I disable MAM on the ejabberd  server   ??
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[08:08:42] <multixmp> I read the faq tcp notes.  Seems clear
Will change to true
However whoever releases ejabberd should have 'true' as the default setting based on those notes
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[08:13:49] <multixmp> I read the faq tcp notes.  Seems clear
Will change to 'true' in .yml
However whoever releases ejabberd should have 'true' as the default setting based on those notes
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[08:28:33] <Holger> multixmp: No. As my article explains, that will lead to duplicates if the recipient uses multiple devices. People should just use MAM.
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[08:30:43] <Holger> multixmp: `true` only makes sense for closed environments where the server operator controls the clients, doesn't support multi-device, and for some reason doesn't want to enable MAM. So that would be a really bad default.
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[08:31:17] <multixmp> storing messages indefinitely on the server creates issues as MAM  does not allow for deletions
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[08:31:41] <multixmp> Ok thanks
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[08:40:36] <Holger> > storing messages indefinitely on the server creates issues as MAM  does not allow for deletions
The admin can expire messages after n days, and most do that.
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[09:07:37] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: if you use OMEMO.....who cares?
The admin can cleanup so the DB doesn't bloat
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[09:53:09] <multixmp> Further tested and it is flakey as
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[09:55:18] <multixmp> Made the setting change to
```
modules:
  mod_stream_mgmt:
    resend_on_timeout: true
  # â€Ķ
```
And the problem exists and is reproducible
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[10:04:04] <multixmp> ISSUE (should be raised in Git)
Ejabberd Server v19.09.1
Client 2 online
('Server side archiving pref = 'never')
Client 2 recieves msg from Client 1
Client 2 then disables wifi after receiving 1st msg
Client 1 sends 5 msg to Client 1
Client 1 gets success delivery for 1st msg
Client 1 recieves no confirmation for 4
Server shows 4 offline msg after a few mins for Client 2
Client 2 reactivates wifi but 4 msg on server offline are never recieved
Server shows 0 offline msg after Client reactivated wifi
This defect should be fixed
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[10:04:33] <multixmp> ISSUE (should be raised in Git)
Ejabberd Server v19.09.1
Client 2 online
('Server side archiving pref = 'never')
Client 2 recieves msg from Client 1
Client 2 then disables wifi after receiving 1st msg
Client 1 sends 5 msg to Client 2
Client 1 gets success delivery for 1st msg
Client 1 recieves no confirmation for 4
Server shows 4 offline msg after a few mins for Client 2
Client 2 reactivates wifi but 4 msg on server offline are never recieved
Server shows 0 offline msg after Client reactivated wifi
This defect should be fixed
[10:04:55] <multixmp> ISSUE (should be raised in Git)
Ejabberd Server v19.09.1
Client 2 online
('Server side archiving pref = 'never')
Client 2 recieves msg from Client 1
Client 2 then disables wifi after receiving 1st msg
Client 1 sends 5 msg to Client 2
Client 1 gets success delivery for 1st msg
Client 1 recieves no confirmation for 4 msg
Server shows 4 offline msg after a few mins for Client 2
Client 2 reactivates wifi but 4 msg on server offline are never recieved
Server shows 0 offline msg after Client reactivated wifi
This defect should be fixed
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[10:05:18] <multixmp> ISSUE (should be raised in Git)
Ejabberd Server v19.09.1
Client 2 online
('Server side archiving pref = 'never')
Client 2 recieves msg from Client 1
Client 2 then disables wifi after receiving 1st msg
Client 1 sends 5 msg to Client 2
Client 1 gets success delivery for 1st msg
Client 1 recieves no confirmation for 4 msg
Server shows 4 offline msg stored after a few mins for Client 2
Client 2 reactivates wifi but 4 msg on server offline are never recieved
Server shows 0 offline msg after Client reactivated wifi
This defect should be fixed
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[10:05:53] <multixmp> ISSUE (should be raised in Git)
Ejabberd Server v19.09.1
Client 2 online
('Server side archiving pref = 'never')
Client 2 recieves msg from Client 1
Client 2 then disables wifi after receiving 1st msg
Client 1 sends 5 msg to Client 2
Client 1 gets success delivery for 1st msg
Client 1 recieves no confirmation for 4 msg
Server shows 4 offline msg stored after a few mins for Client 2
Client 2 reactivates wifi but 4 msg on server offline are 'never recieved" !!
Server shows 0 offline msg after Client reactivated wifi
This defect should be fixed
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[10:07:34] <multixmp> ISSUE (should be raised in Git)
Ejabberd Server v19.09.1
Client 2 online
('Server side archiving pref = 'never')
Client 2 recieves msg from Client 1
Client 2 then disables wifi after receiving 1st msg
Client 1 sends 5 msg to Client 2
Client 1 gets success delivery for 1st msg
Client 1 recieves no confirmation for 4 msg
Server shows 4 offline msg stored after a few mins for Client 2
Client 2 reactivates wifi but 4 msg on server offline are 'never recieved" !!
Server shows 0 offline msg after Client 2 reactivated wifi after a few mins
It would be great if this defect is fixed otherwise ejabberd + Conversations are unreliable comms tools and unusable
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[10:09:14] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> multixmp: given how reliable is for us others, I'd blame it on the server admin setting it up for the first time and disabling features at random
[10:09:38] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> multixmp: what client do you use to post here?
[10:10:29] <daniel> #Layer8
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[10:12:45] <multixmp> That's a silly comment
I did a standard install and have not disabled anything except change a config setting to 'true' and retest as asked to do.
If a client disables the archive function it should NOT break msg delivery
I use only Conversations client to post
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[10:15:17] <multixmp> That's a silly comment
I did a standard install and have not disabled anything except change a config setting to 'true' and retest as asked to do.
If a client disables the archive function it should NOT break msg delivery
Being chastised for identifying a bug is childish
I use only Conversations client to post
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[10:17:25] <multixmp> That's a silly comment
I did a standard install and have not disabled anything except change a config setting to 'true' and retest as asked to do.
If a client disables the archive function it should NOT break msg delivery
Being chastised for identifying a bug is childish. Not really a great way to build a community to drive further adoption of XMPP
I use only Conversations client to post
Perhaps instead of attacking me you should know the test is repeatable.
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[10:43:05] <multixmp> Layer8 indeed
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[10:44:55] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: it can't edit messages properly...don't edit anymore....we've got duplicates
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[10:46:10] <multixmp> I can't see dupes from my client  side  ??
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[10:47:04] <multixmp> Damn .. it appears the bug is in a 'previous' version of Conversations
Upgraded Client 2 to the latest version and seems ok after retesting
[10:48:00] <zinid> I'm not sure why would not you just use default configuration without all this fiddling
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[10:48:45] <zinid> I don't think anything will work reliably without mam
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[10:52:09] <multixmp> Because your implementation of MAM does not allow for Client and Server side permanent message deletion
And that's a must have requirement for users
[10:52:26] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: you use OMEMO?
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[10:54:55] <multixmp> Yes, but just because it's encrypted is not the risk
As the app has no password protection over an encrypted container, if the "physical" phone is lost or compromised (i.e going through an airport in China or Saudi Arabia) all the messages are available in PLAIN TEXT !!
[10:55:38] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> multixmp: delete messages from phone problem solved
[10:56:14] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> Why isn't the phone not locked with a pin?
[10:56:31] <multixmp> How is that solved with MAM they will reappear when the Client syncs back to the Server ??
[10:56:44] <daniel> it doesn’t if you use omemo
[10:58:11] <multixmp> In China and Saudi Arabia you can be detained passing through customs if you are requested and refuse to unlock your devices
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[11:00:09] <multixmp> Daniel:
> it doesn’t if you use omemo
Default to omemo and messages reappear with MAM and messages archived after resync to server
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[11:03:09] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: no...omemo messages CAN be decrypted ONLY once
If you delete that....they're gone
[11:03:33] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: but not requested to unlock the app? Lol what?
[11:04:14] <multixmp> That's why you need a message delete function
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[11:04:35] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> multixmp: do you even read what I write?
[11:05:56] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> https://upload.convorb.im/d60d2ae973d8c8f5349f858e58b5413d6db2ed71/pseS7OSRIS4KKomJERhQJcdqhb8xOITeLtU4YRw9/t3GUvnRHSsye4s8pogL7ag.jpg
[11:06:10] <Licaon_Kter [cnvrs]> > Default to omemo and messages reappear with MAM and messages archived after resync to server
Decode that picture....
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[11:07:45] <multixmp> Licaon_Kter:
> no...omemo messages CAN be decrypted ONLY once
> If you delete that....they're gone
Even with archiving 'on ?
Maybe it's a bug in the previous version of Conversations that was installed on Client 2
Will retest with archiving 'on' for Client 2
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[11:12:53] <zinid> > Licaon_Kter:
> Even with archiving 'on ?
Yes. It's called forward secrecy.
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[11:13:14] <Licaon_Kter> > omemo messages CAN be decrypted ONLY once
> If you delete that....they're gone
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[11:14:27] <zinid> Looks like typical XY problem
[11:15:01] <multixmp> Tested with archiving on and omemo
After deletion, messages flood back with
"Failed to decrypt omemo message"
Having 100's of these flood back after a resync is just lame
[11:15:03] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: you are getting all the info from server admins and server developers, these questions were asked and answered both here and in the Conversations room for the last 3-4 years
[11:16:06] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: yes....but usecases....you might want to know that you've missed messages or that it was an issue in decrypting them
[11:16:47] <multixmp> The implementation is just wrong
[11:16:55] <multixmp> Each to there own
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[11:17:38] <zinid> you're talking like an expert
[11:17:44] <multixmp> Good luck convincing millions of people why you cannot permanently delete a message
[11:18:01] <zinid> millions?
[11:18:10] <daniel> billions
[11:18:18] <multixmp> If you ever want to grow XMPP
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[11:19:08] <zinid> millions of clueless people don't give a fuck and use WhatsApp
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[11:20:04] <zinid> and yeah, I personally don't have any desire to convince anyone, I don't even use omemo, it's blocked on my server
[11:20:07] <multixmp> That's because you can delete msg in WhatsApp
[11:21:08] <zinid> so use WhatsApp
[11:21:18] <zinid> nobody will convince you
[11:21:21] <Holger> That's because WhatsApp doesn't support multi-device as I told you before.
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[11:21:32] <Holger> XMPP without MAM is like WhatsApp.
[11:21:33] <multixmp> Signal is better than WhatsApp
[11:21:43] <zinid> multixmp: how is it better?
[11:21:55] <multixmp> Sorry safer
[11:22:00] <zinid> because it's not Zuckerberg?
[11:22:19] <zinid> because everything else is the same fucking shit
[11:22:41] <Holger> Better marketing for nerds.
[11:22:59] <multixmp> I have outlined the issues why archiving function is not fit for purpose in the way it's been implementated.
Not bagging you, just the usability of what you have releases
If I don't use MAM or archiving then it suits my usability requirements better
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[11:24:32] <multixmp> Let's leave it at that as the dig is not at your dev skills
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[11:25:29] <Holger> multixmp: You have outlined something. close to zero normal users care about, so comments like "this way you won't convince people of XMPP" are bullshit. But we're used to people making such comments because their random pet feature isn't implemented.
[11:26:01] <multixmp> Maybe Conversations needs a fork 😎
[11:26:07] <zinid> multixmp, funny to hear about the skills from a person who doesn't know how to chmod
[11:26:57] <multixmp> I run a team of 50 devs
Stopped low level coding a few years back
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[11:27:25] <zinid> yeah, I see
[11:27:42] <daniel> well chmod is a fairly new tool
[11:28:23] <multixmp> Your funny
[11:28:38] <Licaon_Kter> multixmp: only devs no sysadmins? That's why it takes you 2 days to install a daemon?
[11:29:11] <zinid> 50 imaginary devs
[11:29:24] <multixmp> Exactly I did it and not the sysad
[11:29:27] <zinid> there can be 150 imaginary sysadmins as well, who cares
[11:30:00] <multixmp> Whatever
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[11:30:48] <zinid> wut, trolling is over? 😁
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[11:36:26] <zinid> too bad, because I still want to know why Signal is better than WhatsApp ðŸĪ”
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[11:36:43] <zinid> or safer, whatever
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[11:42:44] <Licaon_Kter> zinid: because of reasons, badly half informed one
[11:42:49] <Licaon_Kter> *
[11:42:54] <Licaon_Kter> *s
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[16:33:42] <sandra24x> hi, i am trying to install ejabberd but when i do SUDO dpkg -i ejqbberd.deb it says i am not in the sudoers file, should i install it as root ?
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[16:39:45] <zinid> yes, install as root
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[16:44:59] <zinid> !uptime zinid.ru
[16:45:00] <Servant> zinid.ru is running since 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours 39 minutes
[16:45:06] <zinid> !uptime conversations.im
[16:45:06] <Servant> zinid: conversations.im is running since 16 weeks 6 days 19 hours 37 minutes
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[16:45:11] <zinid> !uptime trashserver.net
[16:45:11] <Servant> zinid: trashserver.net is running since 6 weeks 1 day 10 hours 53 minutes
[16:45:41] <zinid> !uptime jabber.ru
[16:45:41] <Servant> zinid: jabber.ru is running since 3 days 10 hours 6 minutes 35 seconds
[16:45:48] <zinid> sorry for the flood 😛
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[16:51:00] <sandra24x> mmm i am getting a ldconfig error even with su
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[16:52:00] <zinid> of course you will not show the error
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[16:52:07] <zinid> we should guess?
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[16:54:29] <sandra24x> error was 'ldconfig not found in path or not executable'... but i did SU then SUDO dpkg and I think it got installed...
[16:54:35] <sandra24x> now let's see if it works
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[16:58:04] <zinid> why you did su then sudo, lol?
[16:58:20] <zinid> of course ldconfig won't be found
[16:58:43] <sandra24x> no clue, i felt inspired ... but it did get installed, at least the deb package got installed 😉
[16:59:15] <zinid> systemctl status ejabberd
[17:00:14] <sandra24x> nope unit ejabberd.service could not be found
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[17:01:22] <zinid> dpkg -l | grep ejabberd
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[17:02:59] <sandra24x> i get something
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[17:03:08] <sandra24x> ii ejabberd
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[17:03:36] <sandra24x> ${msg(ejabberd.desc)}
[17:03:45] <zinid> service ejabberd start
[17:04:19] <sandra24x> same issue: failed to start - unit ejabberd.service could not be found
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[17:06:30] <zinid> indeed
[17:06:38] <zinid> > sudo systemctl start ejabberd                              
Failed to start ejabberd.service: Unit ejabberd.service not found.
[17:06:44] <zinid> sigh, what the fuck
[17:07:36] <sandra24x> maybe i didn't install properly debian
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[17:10:56] <zinid> /etc/init.d/ejabberd start
[17:11:03] <zinid> no, it's a problem with the package
[17:11:46] <sandra24x> Sarting ejabberd.... done.
[17:11:48] <sandra24x> 🙂
[17:13:20] <zinid> now the config is in /opt/ejabberd/conf and the logs are in /opt/ejabberd/logs
[17:13:45] <sandra24x> nice even the admin interface works on 5280 🙂
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[17:14:16] <zinid> which is useless
[17:15:00] <zinid> ejabberdctl is in /opt/ejabberd-19.09.1/bin/ejabberdctl
[17:15:03] <zinid> well, that's retarded
[17:15:41] <zinid> sigh, even binary installer looks way better than this shit
[17:16:09] <sandra24x> i have two ejabberd folders in opt...
[17:16:22] <zinid> yes, this is also stupid
[17:16:33] <zinid> one directory is for config, database and logs
[17:16:50] <zinid> another one is for beams
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[17:17:23] <zinid> you don't want to touch the one in ejabberd-19.09.1, the config is in `ejabberd`
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[17:17:41] <sandra24x> yes i opened the yml file
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[17:21:47] <sandra24x> amazing i managed to connect to my 192.168 ip
[17:22:53] <sandra24x> nevermind
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[17:40:17] <sandra24x> so my ejabberd runs on a home network (non static ip) would you say this is right : setup dyndns service (mydomain.dydns.com:5222) => setup router to update it => point mydomain.com to ... ? (i.e can i use a web address such as mydomain.dydns.com)
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[17:41:48] <zinid> yes, but note that other services (like conference or http upload) won't work, because they need additional domain, like conference.mydomain.dydns.com
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[17:42:28] <zinid> you can live without conferences, but not with http upload, you need it for sending cat pics
[17:42:33] <sandra24x> oh yes... that's it all this work for nothing
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[17:44:44] <zinid> hehe, well, yes, I'm not sure how to overcome this
[17:47:04] <sandra24x> my ip is quite stable ... so I will just point the domain directly on it
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[17:49:04] <zinid> ah, you already have a domain?
[17:49:40] <zinid> with some fiddling you can configure ddns if you control your dns daemon
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[18:01:30] <sandra24x> i have a domain yes
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[18:02:30] <sandra24x> i am using a free dyndns ... and I can forward only three ports
[18:03:13] <zinid> if you have only a single domain and cannot create subdomains you cannot configure http upload and things like that
[18:03:17] <zinid> so file transfer won't work
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[18:12:50] <sandra24x> i can create subdomains but if i had my own vps
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[18:17:17] <4223> zinid [13:36]:
> too bad, because I still want to know why Signal is better than WhatsApp ðŸĪ”
Use kik!  ðŸĪŠ
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[18:19:24] <4223> sandra24x [18:51]:
> mmm i am getting a ldconfig error even with su
Use "su -" if you're on Buster.
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[18:21:31] <4223> https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBuster    "Changes"
[18:22:21] <perflyst> anyone else here monitoring s2s connections? since a few days they dropped around 50% and nobody reported issues also for me everything is working
logs dont show anything un-normal
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[18:24:03] <zinid> well, xmpp is dying, everyone is moving to matrix
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[18:24:29] <perflyst> wew
[18:25:10] <perflyst> also, is there a (easy) way to view how much of the c2s and/or s2s are ipv6?
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[18:25:19] <perflyst> also, is there a (easy) way to view how many of the c2s and/or s2s are ipv6?
[18:28:48] <sandra24x> xmpp is dying ? how come ?
[18:30:32] <zinid> perflyst: no, I just use netstat
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[18:30:57] <zinid> which is also an easy way btw 😁
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[18:31:39] <zinid> sandra24x: well I don't see lots of users in xmpp, do you?
[18:32:14] <sandra24x> indeed but what is better with matrix compared to xmpp ?
[18:32:30] <zinid> sandra24x: nothing
[18:32:39] <zinid> matrix is hyped
[18:33:41] <sandra24x> i think so too... i did check matrix but the fundamentals are nothing revolutionary compared to xmpp
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[18:37:36] <zinid> but xmpp is XML!!!111
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[18:40:50] <sandra24x> what is wrong with xml ?
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[18:53:10] <zinid> I'm told it's outdated
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[18:53:43] <zinid> you see, modern IT industry is a subdivision of fashion industry
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[19:03:05] <sandra24x> that's a nice way of saying it, but it seems so...
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[19:37:14] <zinid> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHNej-VU8AA7KD2?format=jpg
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