Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Friday, July 24, 2020< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[00:00:37] jeybe leaves the room
[00:06:40] rom1dep leaves the room
[00:06:46] daidoji joins the room
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[00:17:27] <daidoji> If I were trying to write a module to allow voting within a muc room, how would you go about it?
[00:19:54] daniel leaves the room
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[01:05:38] nuron leaves the room: Rechner geht in den Ruhezustand
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[02:55:17] uname joins the room
[02:55:25] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
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[03:07:42] lobodelrayo leaves the room
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[03:15:35] kikuchiyo joins the room
[03:16:24] ave leaves the room
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[03:18:52] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
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[03:30:14] marc joins the room
[03:30:17] marek joins the room
[03:30:22] kikuchiyo leaves the room
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[03:33:00] uname leaves the room
[03:34:23] john joins the room
[03:36:49] riau illiyyin leaves the room
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[03:46:29] ave leaves the room
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[03:53:34] riau illiyyin joins the room
[03:55:22] uname leaves the room
[03:55:26] marc leaves the room
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[04:00:19] abba joins the room
[04:01:12] insanity joins the room
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[04:03:02] pprrks leaves the room
[04:03:16] tyler leaves the room
[04:10:51] perflyst joins the room
[04:15:37] abba leaves the room
[04:16:23] riau illiyyin leaves the room
[04:16:25] riau illiyyin joins the room
[04:16:32] ave leaves the room
[04:16:46] ave joins the room
[04:17:14] robert_mobil joins the room
[04:19:19] uname leaves the room
[04:19:29] uname joins the room
[04:21:57] perflyst leaves the room
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[04:23:57] john leaves the room
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[04:24:52] john leaves the room
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[04:26:12] john leaves the room
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[04:29:28] iobug joins the room
[04:30:28] 4223 leaves the room
[04:34:03] pprrks joins the room
[04:35:25] john leaves the room
[04:36:48] riau illiyyin leaves the room
[04:37:09] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[04:38:08] marc leaves the room
[04:40:39] SouL joins the room
[04:46:10] Licaon_Kter joins the room
[04:46:37] ave leaves the room
[04:46:48] ave joins the room
[04:46:48] Pingu from Woodquarter joins the room
[04:47:33] riau illiyyin joins the room
[04:49:41] john joins the room
[04:50:35] perflyst leaves the room
[04:50:38] stefan leaves the room
[04:50:41] 4223 joins the room
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[04:50:58] perflyst joins the room
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[05:00:01] dominion leaves the room
[05:00:02] dominion joins the room
[05:00:12] Neustradamus_ leaves the room
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[05:02:16] briest joins the room
[05:03:07] Neustradamus_ leaves the room
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[05:04:25] briest joins the room
[05:06:09] nekit joins the room
[05:07:00] riau illiyyin leaves the room
[05:08:23] pod leaves the room
[05:08:23] pod joins the room
[05:09:35] marc joins the room
[05:11:55] kikuchiyo joins the room
[05:12:06] uname joins the room
[05:13:24] Neustradamus_ leaves the room
[05:13:24] Neustradamus_ joins the room
[05:13:58] uname leaves the room
[05:16:17] Stephen leaves the room
[05:16:50] ave leaves the room
[05:16:52] Stephen joins the room
[05:17:08] ave joins the room
[05:17:38] Neustradamus_ leaves the room
[05:17:38] Neustradamus_ joins the room
[05:21:44] Dom joins the room
[05:21:44] Neustradamus_ leaves the room
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[05:21:57] perflyst leaves the room
[05:27:38] dos leaves the room
[05:28:35] nik leaves the room
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[05:33:17] john leaves the room
[05:33:30] adrien joins the room
[05:35:39] Stephen leaves the room
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[05:37:51] lorddavidiii joins the room
[05:40:22] ma1uta leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
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[05:41:12] briest leaves the room
[05:41:13] briest joins the room
[05:43:18] smalltimebloke joins the room
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[05:46:59] Akasch leaves the room
[05:48:34] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[05:49:18] SERGE90 leaves the room
[05:50:26] pprrks leaves the room
[05:51:25] Akasch joins the room
[05:51:28] SERGE90 joins the room
[05:51:31] kikuchiyo joins the room
[05:52:32] pprrks joins the room
[05:52:49] perflyst joins the room
[05:52:58] maddl leaves the room
[05:53:03] maddl joins the room
[05:53:17] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[05:53:23] debalance joins the room
[05:53:23] Akasch leaves the room
[05:53:36] Akasch joins the room
[05:54:09] Akasch leaves the room
[05:54:26] Akasch joins the room
[05:56:42] Akasch leaves the room
[05:56:57] Stephen leaves the room
[05:57:07] Akasch joins the room
[05:57:14] uname joins the room
[05:59:40] Akasch leaves the room
[05:59:58] Akasch joins the room
[06:00:11] Akasch leaves the room
[06:00:20] abba joins the room
[06:00:22] Akasch joins the room
[06:01:25] kikuchiyo joins the room
[06:02:12] briest leaves the room
[06:02:15] briest joins the room
[06:03:54] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[06:05:20] dominion leaves the room
[06:05:32] dominion joins the room
[06:10:06] abba leaves the room
[06:10:17] thorsten leaves the room
[06:10:17] ThUnD3r|Gr33n leaves the room
[06:11:57] kikuchiyo joins the room
[06:12:09] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[06:15:59] briest leaves the room
[06:16:01] briest joins the room
[06:16:57] ave leaves the room
[06:17:01] ave joins the room
[06:17:07] maddl leaves the room
[06:17:17] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[06:17:21] maddl joins the room
[06:17:21] sonny joins the room
[06:18:56] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[06:19:11] sonny joins the room
[06:20:43] mss_cyclist leaves the room
[06:20:45] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[06:20:50] sonny joins the room
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[06:22:09] kikuchiyo joins the room
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[06:24:02] sonny leaves the room
[06:24:07] maddl leaves the room
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[06:26:32] sonny joins the room
[06:27:11] perflyst leaves the room
[06:29:06] Viktor Lindberg leaves the room
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[06:33:15] kolbrich joins the room
[06:33:26] ij joins the room
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[06:41:08] john leaves the room
[06:42:40] maddl leaves the room
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[06:51:15] john leaves the room
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[06:54:49] kikuchiyo joins the room
[06:56:15] Holger joins the room
[06:58:38] Holger leaves the room
[07:02:13] mss_cyclist leaves the room
[07:02:36] marc leaves the room
[07:02:55] sezuan leaves the room
[07:06:15] mss_cyclist joins the room
[07:06:28] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[07:06:32] sonny joins the room
[07:07:56] kikuchiyo leaves the room
[07:08:24] marc joins the room
[07:10:37] madmalkav joins the room
[07:12:46] insanity leaves the room
[07:12:47] pprrks leaves the room
[07:13:11] Felix joins the room
[07:14:13] sezuan joins the room
[07:14:18] insanity joins the room
[07:16:24] prefiks joins the room
[07:16:30] Stephen leaves the room
[07:16:45] Felix leaves the room
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[07:17:15] marc leaves the room
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[07:18:24] Alexander joins the room
[07:19:36] john joins the room
[07:20:07] Felix leaves the room
[07:20:07] insanity leaves the room
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[07:21:00] Holger joins the room
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[07:23:49] Licaon_Kter joins the room
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[07:32:56] dominion joins the room
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[07:50:04] mimi89999 leaves the room: Disconnected: Received SIGTERM
[07:50:11] marc leaves the room
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[08:32:28] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
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[09:10:17] <Holger> daidoji, you control the clients?
[09:13:17] pod joins the room
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[09:35:10] Ellenor Bjornsdottir leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
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[09:35:34] chrys leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[09:35:59] Ellenor Bjornsdottir joins the room
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[09:40:33] Ellenor Bjornsdottir leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
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[09:48:02] chrys leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
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[10:18:14] Felix leaves the room
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[10:19:20] jazzywind32 joins the room
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[10:25:50] Ellenor Bjornsdottir leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[10:26:00] Stephen joins the room
[10:26:45] Ellenor Bjornsdottir joins the room
[10:28:58] ave leaves the room
[10:28:58] Felix joins the room
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[10:30:13] skyfar leaves the room
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[10:31:23] j.r leaves the room
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[10:33:32] ave joins the room
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[10:36:01] uname joins the room
[10:36:47] mfoss leaves the room
[10:37:27] uname leaves the room
[10:38:49] sonny leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
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[10:48:15] <Licaon_Kter> https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/3340
Encrypted files are useless if the message is deleted, so it won't matter.
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[10:48:57] <Holger> Yeah, maybe.
[10:49:25] <Holger> But I think we want to delete unencrypted anyway, so we can just as well delete encrypted as well.
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[10:50:03] <Holger> The recipient might have the URL (and decryption keys) and you don't want him to access it or whatever.
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[10:53:17] <Licaon_Kter> Right  👍
[10:53:32] <Licaon_Kter> This was discussed iirc, right?
[10:53:48] <Holger> Comes up every now and then ...
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[10:54:50] <Holger> So yes I think I've seen various discussions in random rooms or on the mailing list or at the Summit, dunno.  I'm just not aware of any outcome besides Matt saying "please don't spam XEP-0313 with that but write a separate XEP".
[10:55:19] <Holger> And Mickaël seems to be motivated to get something done now.
[10:55:48] <Holger> (We discussed things a bit this morning ...)
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[10:56:07] <Licaon_Kter> Gdpr?
[10:56:44] <Holger> Yes I would _guess_ some customer requirement maybe triggered by GDPR but didn't ask.
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[11:04:59] <Licaon_Kter> But https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#archives_deletion
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[11:43:38] <Holger> Yeah, with ejabberd, MAM queries will remain consistent (due to ejabberd using the timestamp as the MAM/stanza ID).
[11:43:58] <Holger> I.e. nothing breaks if you manually delete individual messages.
[11:44:45] <prefiks> yes, this shouldn't be a problem with ejabberd implementaiton
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[14:28:58] <daidoji> Holger , yeah I assumed I'd have to modify the clients a bit
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[14:29:25] <daidoji> although I guess the alternative would be to shoe-horn the voting process into user messages through filtering somehow?
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[14:37:55] <daidoji> also I'm kinda new to erlang so I'm having difficulty figuring out which behaviors to use in doing so.  After reading the docs I made a stateful gen_server module that takes in an iq stanza I set for voting within a muc (doesn't even do any auth on the jid or muc yet) and then after a threshold timestamp is passed it doesn't accept vote state changes anymore but will return a result.
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[14:38:24] <daidoji> But then its kinda wonky.  Could I have used a gen_statem to do the same thing in erlang?
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[14:40:01] <Holger> Rule of thumb, gen_server is always the right behavior 😉
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[14:40:59] <Holger> For state machine things gen_fsm/gen_statem are slightly more convenient (though you can easily do a state machine with gen_server), yes.  But your problem doesn't sind like a state machine thing to me.
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[14:41:41] <Holger> It doesn't exactly sound trivial to me, and I'm a bit distracted by work sorry.
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[14:44:22] <Holger> I'd imagine you'd publish the survey e.g. as some 0004 form.  Then clients respond.  Then you want the server to store those responses (persistently or in-memory?).  Then you might want a way to query results (or do you have a voting period, and publish results only afterwards)?
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[14:46:55] <Holger> I mean I'll happily help with questions regarding Erlang-specific implementation details but so far the design isn't clear to me.
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[15:05:30] <daidoji> Holger yeah thanks.  What I want to build is clear to me but not how to get there in the erlang/ejabberd way.  It was more just a question of opinion.  How you'd do it if you were trying to design a voting system via the path of least resistance.
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[15:06:00] <daidoji> also, why is gen_server the general rule of thumb?  Doesn't gen_statem do something similar but with a well defined state machine?
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[15:06:43] <Holger> Yes if you actually need a state machine then go for gen_statem.
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[15:07:15] <daidoji> oh okay, so you were just saying a state machine isn't exactly a voting mechanism.
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[15:07:36] <daidoji> roger
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[15:07:53] <Holger> Right I didn't expect you need one.  And in general I just see gen_fsm/gen_statem sometimes being used for non-FSM use cases.
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[15:08:36] <Holger> I mean in practice the problem is often somewhere in between being a state machine thing and not being a state machine thing 🙂
[15:08:41] <Holger> Whatever.
[15:08:46] <Holger> What states do you have?
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[15:10:19] <daidoji> true.  Well voting is pretty simple right (for first past the post voting)
1 init -> 2 accumulate_votes -> time_threshold up? a) push_result
b) goto 2
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[15:10:31] <daidoji> but I made that in a state machine already
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[15:10:43] <daidoji> because it wasn't too difficult
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[15:11:03] <daidoji> well at least the mechanism.  Tying it into ejabberd in a reasonable way is where I'm at now
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[15:11:41] <Holger> > I mean in practice the problem is often somewhere in between being a state machine thing and not being a state machine thing
... and in such cases I'd tend to go for gen_server because the FSM aspect of the problem is trivially implemented in a gen_server (`handle_call(R, F, #state{current_state = whatever}) -> handle_current_state(R)`).
[15:11:45] <daidoji> but I'm very new to erlang/xmpp/ejabberd so that was the origin of the question about gen_statem.  Was to see if that was the right way to do it
[15:11:58] <daidoji> Holger word
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[15:15:31] <Holger> daidoji: Sorry I'm still unclear about the mechanism. What's your time_threshold up there?  The voting period?  And push which results where?
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[15:16:07] <daidoji> 1. yeah the voting period. 2) to some kind of persistent store and the muc room itself so that people can see the results of the vote
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[15:22:42] <Holger> Still doesn't really sound like a FSM thing to me to be honest 😉  Neither initialization nor pushing results sound like states in which you handle requests, just like construction/termination of the voting, so you end up with the single state "vote accumulation".  But I'm sorry for riding around on it 🙂
[15:22:57] <daidoji> oh no worries, I think you've convinced me.
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[15:23:21] <Holger> And if you want persistent storage anyway the question is whether you need any Erlang process at all.
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[15:23:48] <daidoji> oh what do you mean?  I thought these modules were the way to go in erlang
[15:24:00] <Holger> Rather than just throwing voting results into the DB as you see them arrive.
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[15:24:23] <daidoji> ahhh
[15:24:31] <Holger> Erlang is obviously very good at lightweight processes but got only need those if you have some sort of state to keep.
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[15:25:11] <daidoji> oh so the stateful gen_server type module would be only non-persistent state?  Is that what you mean?
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[15:25:24] <Holger> If you don't, you could create a `mod_voting` that subscribed to `muc_stanza` events, handles them on-the-fly, and stores nothing in memory.
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[15:25:34] <Holger> *subscribes
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[15:26:08] <Holger> Only question (to me) would be how to trigger the voting period timeout.
[15:26:14] <daidoji> ahhh, and the muc_stanzas would be custom ones that I'd have to implement on the client?
[15:26:21] <Holger> But I'm unclear about that either way, if you want to survice ejabberd restarts.
[15:26:31] <Holger> ... during the voting period.
[15:26:44] <daidoji> ahhh, is that a difficult thing to do do you think?
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[15:27:29] <daidoji> like its easy enough to not record votes that come in after a time period it seems
[15:27:58] <Holger> Well at least difficult in the sense that the solution isn't obvious to me to name it without thinking about it more than a few seconds 🙂
[15:28:00] <daidoji> I thought I could have the supervisor wait for that process to terminate and then do a push somehow to the muc
[15:28:10] <Holger> (Again not Erlang-specific: How would you do it conceptionally in a C server?)
[15:28:14] <daidoji> ahhh okay, well let me know if you think of something
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[15:28:39] <Holger> And regarding the events, no I wasn't thinking of client stuff.
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[15:28:46] <Holger> ejabberd has 'hooks'.
[15:28:55] <Holger> Your module can subscribe to them.
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[15:29:35] <Holger> You can subscribe to `muc_process_iq` or `muc_filter_message`, for example.
[15:29:45] <daidoji> well I'd have to have some kind of watch or callback that waits until the time period threshold has passed, and then push that result to the clients that have subscribed.  In python say, I'd probably just push to a MQ somewhere that clients subscribe to while they're in a room
[15:30:00] <Holger> Which means your callback function will be called on each and every IQ/message stanza, you can look at it and do something with it, or ignore it.
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[15:30:27] <daidoji> Holger cool, yeah I've seen that mentioned in the documentation
[15:30:29] <Holger> Yes but what if your Python daemon is restarted?
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[15:31:06] <daidoji> well the MQ wouldn't be restarted and I'd have to have persistent state in that MQ or via some kind of boostrapping for the python process I suppose
[15:31:20] <daidoji> losing votes would probably be an option in the naive implementation in my head
[15:31:24] <Holger> Right.  You'd need to store the timestamp somewhere.
[15:31:29] <daidoji> but I'm sure that risk could be mitigated
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[15:31:34] <daidoji> yeah
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[15:31:36] <Holger> And read those timestamps on restart.
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[15:31:39] <Holger> That's what I mean.
[15:31:45] <daidoji> ahhh
[15:31:48] <daidoji> indeed
[15:31:58] <Holger> And implementation details depend on such things.
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[15:32:18] <Holger> Which is what I meant above when I said I'm unclear about the design.
[15:33:08] <daidoji> hmm, me too 😃
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[15:33:20] <daidoji> haha
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[15:33:35] <Holger> 🙂  Yeah it's not totally trivial.
[15:33:52] <Holger> So I'd try to decide on these things before thinking about implementation.
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[15:34:41] <Holger> "these things" also include the client<->server protocol for starting a vote, for asking for votes, for submitting votes, and for publishing results.
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[15:34:55] <daidoji> hmm, well that's teh chicken and the egg problem for me right?  I'm new to erlang/ejabberd so its hard to decide those things without implementing something right?
[15:35:00] <Holger> Implementation details depend on the protocol details as well.
[15:35:09] <Holger> I wouldn't say so.
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[15:35:21] <Holger> You can implement any requirements in ejabberd 😉
[15:35:26] <daidoji> I have psuedo-design of all those things for the protocol itself, just trying to figure out how to implement it
[15:35:35] <daidoji> I'm sure
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[15:36:05] <daidoji> this is like the prototype ver 0.0.1.  I figure I'd iterate off that
[15:36:06] <Holger> I would think about the details of how you want it to be and then figure out how to implement them.  Rather than trying to figure out "what looks easy to implement".
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[15:36:47] <Holger> At least I'd be better at helping with "how to store an IQ result" than I am with "is gen_statem cool for voting" 😜️
[15:36:56] <daidoji> roger
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[15:40:48] <daidoji> but like is this the high-level workflow you'd go through?
1. Design protocol (logical psuedo protocol).  Make decisions about say whether to use IQ stanzas or message stanzas etc...
2. Adjust server with calls to handle those stanzas via the event hooks
3. Adjust client to send those stanzas
4. Figure out how to implement that push notification to clients
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[15:41:48] <Holger> Yeah.
[15:41:53] <daidoji> okay cool
[15:42:13] <Holger> TBH if you want to do it properly, custom syntax isn't totally trivial with ejabberd.
[15:42:22] <Holger> As you'd want to add it to processone/xmpp.
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[15:42:54] <Holger> Which gives you proper input validation during (de)serialization of the stanzas.
[15:43:21] <Holger> But if you'd like to avoid that, there's quick'n'dirty ways to work around it 🙂
[15:43:35] <daidoji> hmm, but isn't that just a matter of adding some headers or am I underestimating the difficulty  of that work?
[15:43:41] <daidoji> that's the part that is still murky to me
[15:43:42] <Holger> Or just use Prosody 😂️  The one big advantage it has is that custom modules are trivial.
[15:43:50] <daidoji> ahh
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[15:44:09] <Holger> No input validation and scalability and whatnot.  But it's trivial.
[15:44:24] <Holger> It's a bit more than that.
[15:44:26] <daidoji> I'll keep that in mind
[15:44:34] <Holger> I can walk you through it if you're motivated.
[15:44:48] <Holger> But if you just want to get stuff done quickly it might be a bit frustrating.
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[15:45:12] <daidoji> ahhh, maybe in the future
[15:45:14] <Holger> Esp. as custom extensions aren't really first-class citizens in processone/xmpp (there _is_ some support though).
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[15:45:22] <daidoji> unless there's already some general guidelines written down somewhere
[15:45:26] <Holger> It's still a (standard) _XMPP_ server 🙂
[15:45:32] <daidoji> ahhh, yeah
[15:46:16] <daidoji> is the quick and dirty way just listening for events on the hooks like we've talked about?
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[15:46:28] <Holger> The totally official docs on custom extensions are here: https://github.com/processone/xmpp/issues/9
[15:46:29] <daidoji> and the kosher way doing what you're talking about?
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[15:46:48] <Holger> No right now I'm just talking about custom IQ _syntax_, nothing else.
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[15:47:21] <daidoji> ahhh haha
[15:47:34] <daidoji> oh okay
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[15:47:40] <Holger> The koscher way is adding the syntax to p1/xmpp which will end up with the IQs being deserialized into some #vote{} records.
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[15:47:53] <Holger> The quick'n'dirty way would be working with #xml{} records.
[15:48:03] <daidoji> oh got ya
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