Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Thursday, June 29, 2023< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
Room Configuration
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GMT+0
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[05:39:45] <Manis> Chunk: does biboumi have a single user option? Or did you mean the single IRC server option?
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[10:15:34] <Manis> ejabberd does not support HTTP virtual hosts, or does it?
I'd like to have a separate domain for HTTP uploads.
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[10:32:37] <meson> Manis: you may check out https://github.com/weiss/ngx_http_upload
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[10:35:43] <Holger> Yes that module might be nice if you're using Nginx, but it's kinda unrelated to virtual hosting.  ejabberd's `mod_http_upload` supports that just fine by default.  It just becomes a little quirky if you want a _single_ upload domain for multiple virtual hosts.  In that case one workaround is to configure `put_url: https://upload.example.com/@HOST@`.  (I.e. the `put_url` must contain the `@HOST@` keyword, but it can be part of the `/path/`.)
[10:36:01] <Holger> If you really really want to avoid that, there's a more complex configuration that would do what you want.
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[10:42:04] <meson> ~Manis: you may check out https://github.com/weiss/ngx_http_upload~
Edit: Sorry, somehow missed the virtual host part.
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[10:49:15] <Manis> Is ngx_http_upload what conversations.im is using?
[10:50:44] <Holger> Yes we do use it.
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[10:53:32] <Manis> My server is hosting only one domain. If I need more domains I set up more servers. So I could configure mod_http_upload to use https://upload.example.com/, but then, how would I set up the listen section to serve the uploaded files?
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[10:55:50] <Holger> Manis, you mean when using Nginx?  Or `ejabberd_http`?
[10:56:02] <Manis> ejabberd_http.
[10:56:36] <Manis> Since this machine and domain will only be used for XMPP I'm trying to keep as much inside ejabberd as possible (will see if that is a good decision in the future :-))
[10:57:13] <Holger> You can always move to a separate web server at a later point in time.
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[10:57:28] <Holger> There's nothing special to consider for multi-domain regarding the listener configuration.
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[10:59:35] <Manis> The idea was to have a web server serving some information on example.com and only serve uploads with `Host: upload.example.com`.
[10:59:46] <Manis> I guess this is not possible with ejabberd alone?
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[11:00:40] <Holger> There's `mod_http_fileserver` for serving static content.
[11:00:53] <Holger> If you'd like to avoid a separate web server for that purpose as well.
[11:01:40] <Manis> I have mod_http_fileserver enabled, but how I would want to use mod_http_fileserver for `Host: example.com` and mod_http_upload for `Host: upload.example.com`.
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[11:02:27] <Manis> Similarly to how conversations.im is set up. conversations.im serves the home page and share.conversations.im the uploads.
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[11:05:54] <Holger> Yeah but we use Nginx 🙂  `ejabberd_http` is super-simple and doesn't support virtual hosting in that sense, i.e. you cannot delegate queries to modules based on the HTTP client's Host: header, only based on the URL /path/.
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[11:06:50] <Holger> You might be able to use `upload.example.com/share/` (upload) vs. `example.com` (file server) as a workaround.
[11:07:37] <Holger> Or just `example.com/upload/` vs. `example.com`, no need for a separate subdomain here.
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[11:08:32] <Manis> OK, this was the question :-)
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[11:11:11] <Manis> If I may ask a question regarding "conversations internals": how do you manage SSL certificates? Are you using the ejabberd_acme?
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[11:12:36] <Holger> No we're not.
[11:13:00] <Holger> The tricky part is managing hosted domains, but you're just interested in what ACME client we're using?
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[11:14:17] <Manis> You mean XMPP domains on ejabberd?
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[11:15:03] <Holger> We offer domain hosting: https://account.conversations.im/domain/
[11:15:25] <Manis> I know but I wasn't sure if you meant that or some domains being hosted by an external provider.
[11:15:28] <Holger> So if you want us to host your example.com domain, the question is how to obtain a certificate for that domain of _yours_.
[11:15:51] <kapad> Holger:  what ACME client you're using?
[11:15:52] <Holger> I wasn't sure whether your question was about this thing, or just "how do you get an LE cert for the conversations.im domain".
[11:15:54] <Manis> mhmh, I see, because you won't be running the web server hosting their home page.
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[11:17:44] <Holger> kapad, acme-tiny for HTTP challenges, dehydrated for DNS challenges.
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[11:18:52] <Holger> There's an endless list of clients, most of which try to do more things out of the box for convenience.  I want it minimalistic, i.e. "grab a cert and nothing else", which is what acme-tiny does.
[11:19:10] <Manis> While drafting the configuration of jabb.li (the server I'm working on) I was thinking about how to implement different things, like a small home page, XMPP, certificates, ports etc.
ejabberd_acme and mod_http_fileserver always seemed like very elegant solutions because no separate software is needed etc.
But then ejabberd is very limited in these regards (like not supporting dns-01) or no vhosts.
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[11:20:21] <Holger> Yes.  Once you have requirements that go beyong the most basic ones you'd want to switch to separate software.  The goal is not to replace a full blown web server within ejabberd.
[11:20:25] <Holger> This isn't Emacs 🙂
[11:20:25] <Manis> So since we arrived at "how is conversations.im" doing things I was just wondering if you somehow managed to use ejabberd_acme or if you manage certificates externally and simply let ejabberd use them.
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[11:20:37] <Manis> Hey, leave my Emacs alone!!
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[11:20:44] <Holger> 🙂
[11:21:38] <Holger> Manis, well for starters conversations.im predates ejabberd_acme 🙂  But I'm kinda the opposite when setting up a serious service, I prefer a proper web server for serving HTTP, and so on.
[11:22:08] <Manis> I don't know if this decision made any sense but in the end the main reason for me to go with mod_http_fileserver was that it would be easy to enable XMPP-over-WS without the need to configure a WebSockets proxy.
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[11:24:02] <Manis> Holger, I see your point and now that we're talking about it, I'm reconsidering the current setup. I never felt 100% comfortable with having everything inside ejabberd. Things get complicated very fast (already if say I wanted to provide a simple web interface for users to set their email addresses for password recovery).
[11:24:15] <Holger> I think the main point of having simple variants of non-XMPP services built into ejabberd is basically to make the whole thing beginner-friendly.  The idea is you can run `apt install ejabberd` and everything just works.  Once you have non-beginner requirements, you usually want to move to separate software for non-XMPP things.
[11:24:56] <Holger> First thing is switching from the built-in DB to SQL (personally I wouldn't even support the built-in thing at all) 🙂  And next step is using a separate web server, in my book.
[11:24:57] <Manis> Well, I'm not sure if it _really_ makes it more beginner friendly, but that's maybe subjective.
[11:25:07] <Holger> I'm not sure either 🙂
[11:25:14] <Manis> Getting rid of mnesia? Yes, please.
[11:25:17] <Holger> !!
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[11:25:43] <Manis> Even if the default is SQLite (which works perfectly fine for small setups).
[11:25:53] <Holger> Well I guess those issues a kinda different.  Having HTTP upload work out of the box (on some high port) is nice, and I see no downside with that.
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[11:26:21] <Manis> In fact, defaulting to SQLite would actually make things more beginner friendly, because the chance that an average sysadmin knows how to deal with SQLite is larger than mnesia.
[11:26:55] <Holger> Yes the idea is (was?) switching to SQLite as the default.  As soon as we have automagic SQL schema migration.  I think the plan was to be done with that soon, in 2017 or so 🙂
[11:26:56] <Manis> True. You can also trivially have an internal :5443/upload and then reverse proxy it in your web server.
[11:27:33] <Manis> Oh, that's an interesting read. I didn't know ejabberd was to actually manage its DB itself, but that would be a welcome change.
[11:27:46] <Manis> Talking about SQL: old and new schema are also confusing for beginners.
[11:28:04] <Holger> Schema changes in Mnesia are auto-migrated on upgrades.  SQL schema changes currently aren't.
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[11:28:42] <Holger> > Talking about SQL: old and new schema are also confusing for beginners.
Yes!!  I think the plan here is to get rid of the old one in 2018 or so 😂️
[11:29:09] <Manis> Ah, good to know, because I was actually thinking about do I want old or new on this server where there will ever only be one domain.
[11:29:42] <Holger> I seem to remember Tigase switching the other way round: What we call the 'old' one (separate DBs per virtual host) was announced as a new feature at some point 🙂
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[11:30:00] <Holger> Manis, technically I'd say you want the old one.
[11:30:15] <Holger> Manis, it's just that you might need to convert to the new one in 2018 or so.
[11:30:45] <Manis> 🤣️
[11:31:17] <Holger> We're using the old one on conversations.im, FWIW.  Hosted domain customer leaves?  Just drop the DB!
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[11:32:56] <Manis> I don't see many advantages to the old schema, TBH. OK, maybe you need to have some more DB connections open, but I wonder if that's actually a problem for any serious RDBMS.
[11:33:08] <meson> Holger: 😆 but what was the ejabberd's reasoning to go the other way around?
[11:33:35] <Manis> The only reason for the new schema I could intuitively come up with would be some shared hosters which limit the number of DBs you can have, but then can you even run ejabberd there?
[11:33:37] <meson> Holger: 😆 but what was ejabberd's reasoning to go the other way around?
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[11:35:51] <Holger> meson: Basically what Manis said above, the number of connections to the SQL engine is per DB, so "one DB per domain" doesn't scale to millions of virtual domains.
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[11:36:54] <Holger> Plus there's one and a half global tables (esp. if you use SQL as memory DB, which nobody does), those are duplicated with the old schema.
[11:38:06] <Manis> Has anyone measured the difference in query speed between old and new?
I could imagine that the old schema is quite a bit more performant due to the smaller tables.
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[11:38:18] <Manis> (in the "millions of hosts" case)
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[11:38:27] <Holger> But I wasn't really involved with these things, I'm just replicating what zinid told me back in the days. I guess the requirement came up with some ProcessOne customer(s).
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[11:40:14] <Manis> I don't think having two schemas is a bad thing per se. But maybe they should be renamed to something more meaningful than "old" and "new".
[11:40:29] <Manis> Especially if they are likely to stay (as it seems).
[11:40:41] <meson> > doesn't scale to millions of virtual domains.
Do you have some concrete example of providers who serve such a large number of virtual domains?
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[11:41:05] <meson> > doesn't scale to millions of virtual domains.
Do you have some example of providers who serve such a large number of virtual domains?
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[11:55:25] <Holger> Manis, yes, meson, no 🙂
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[15:20:50] <Wojtek> > I seem to remember Tigase switching the other way round: What we call the 'old' one (separate DBs per virtual host) was announced as a new feature at some point 🙂
SOT: Hmm... we support both. By default everything is in the single database, but if someone decides to have per-domain database then it's possible and is a matter of specifying a datasource for the domain (it's also possible to specify dedicated databases for components for example :-)
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[15:31:58] <Holger> 👍
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[17:08:28] <kapad> » [11:17:44] Holger: kapad, acme-tiny for HTTP challenges, ...
!
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[17:50:58] <kapad> if one of initial ideas about ejabberd was `install` and `run` i can say that at least in my case that was it happen at all. If i want to speak for this software, on of the 1st things would be this, so i think `job done` in this.
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[17:53:02] <kapad> as of mnesia, i think that is iteself part of the above philosophy, in short there is cases that someone, maybe, no need a db at all. so mnesia will serve the internal needs of the server for this, without the user/admin have to deal design nothing.
[17:53:15] <kapad> as of mnesia, i think that is itself part of the above philosophy, in short there is cases that someone, maybe, no need a db at all. so mnesia will serve the internal needs of the server for this, without the user/admin have to deal design nothing.
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[17:57:48] <kapad> for example a user that needs just an account to join/browse rooms, or a vhost that holds just some, many maybe, anonymous rooms with no users, no `real` mam no big room history. Dont test this setup for many users, lets say a rooms with 1000 people or a vhost with some thousands of users, but by what i can think this is a matter of ejabberd's performance, cache, and cache-like use of a db, and not a real need of save thisngs there ...
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[18:00:12] <kapad> for example a user that needs just an account to join/browse rooms, or a vhost that holds just some, many maybe, anonymous rooms with no users, no `real` mam no big room history. Dont test this setup for many users, lets say rooms with 1000 people each or a vhost with some thousands of users, but by what i can think this is a matter of ejabberd's performance, cache, and cache-like use of a db, and not a real need of save thisngs there ...
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