Process-one
ejabberd
ejabberd@conference.process-one.net
Thursday, July 13, 2023< ^ >
zinid has set the subject to: ejabberd discussions: https://docs.ejabberd.im
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[08:18:59] <manis> What does rebar want me to do?
> ERROR: Dependency dir /usr/local/src/ejabberd/deps/jiffy failed application validation with reason:
> {missing_app_file,"/usr/local/src/ejabberd/deps/jiffy"}.
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[08:19:33] <manis> The dependency management of the build system seems a bit "flaky" to me.
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[08:21:12] <Licaon_Kter> manis: you are updating?
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[08:21:35] <Licaon_Kter> If so, after git pull, run `make update` then ./configure... then make
[08:21:40] <manis> Licaon_Kter, I'm "working" on #4059.
[08:21:52] <Licaon_Kter> Would not hurt :))
[08:22:01] <manis> I made a fresh clone from GitHub, `git checkout 23.04`, applied patch and tried to comiple.
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[08:22:04] <manis> I made a fresh clone from GitHub, `git checkout 23.04`, applied patch and tried to compile.
[08:22:48] <Licaon_Kter> Ah, ok
[08:23:22] <Licaon_Kter> So clone, `./autogen`
Then `./configure`
Then `make -j$(nproc)
[08:23:30] <Licaon_Kter> So clone, then `./autogen`
Then `./configure`
Then `make -j$(nproc)`
[08:23:46] <manis> That's what I did.
[08:23:51] <manis> That's exactly what I did.
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[08:24:25] <manis> `make update` seems to be compiling the dependencies now. Let's see how far is goes. Looks better than `make [default]` at least.
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[08:25:04] <manis> (Using system deps would be preferable, though.)
[08:25:09] <Licaon_Kter> The update is only if you did `git pull` usually
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[08:25:22] <Licaon_Kter> The `update` is only if you did `git pull` usually
[08:26:25] <manis> Hmm, according to the Makefile there is only a slight difference in the way rebar is called between deps and update :-/
[08:26:32] <manis> Hmm, according to the Makefile there is only a slight difference in the way rebar is called between `deps` and `update` :-/
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[08:27:27] <manis> Just out of curiosity: is building without rebar possible?
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[08:27:56] <Licaon_Kter> Maybe...
[08:27:59] <Licaon_Kter> Why?
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[08:28:16] <manis> I have a dislike for "modern"/language-specific build systems.
[08:28:25] <Licaon_Kter> Eh
[08:28:30] <manis> I feel like they're so often generating more problems than they're solving.
[08:28:47] <manis> I was just curious if rebar is only used for managing dependencies or if it actually builds ejabberd.
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[08:30:02] <Licaon_Kter> No idea, I build rebar3 locally first anyway
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[08:38:38] <manis> > Compiling src/eldap_filter_yecc.yrl failed:
> ERROR: compile failed while processing /usr/local/src/ejabberd: rebar_abort
[08:38:56] <manis> We will never know what went wrong ;-)
[08:39:24] <prefiks> you can add -vv to rebar to get more output
[08:39:45] <manis> uh, okay, now I just need to figure out how to get it through the Makefile.
[08:39:46] <prefiks> possible you don't yecc installed
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[08:40:00] <manis> aha. I don't have yecc.
[08:40:17] <manis> But wouldn't that be something the configure script should be checking?
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[08:41:12] <prefiks> eh, this is standard, built-in module of erlang, usually it's available
[08:41:31] <manis> Ah, I thought it would be an executable.
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[08:42:17] <prefiks> if you usuing debian that would be erlang-parsetools
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[08:42:55] <manis> Ah thanks.
[08:43:08] <manis> So it's not quite as "standard". I think it should be checked by configure.ac.
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[08:44:09] <prefiks> i mean it comes with erlang compiler, it's just that debian split it into multiple packages
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[08:44:45] <manis> Sure, but still isn't it the purpose of a configure script to check if the system is able to compile the software?
[08:45:07] <manis> Why make it unnecessarily complex for people to compile your software?
[08:45:19] <pinkolik>     
[08:45:50] <Licaon_Kter> manis: lol?
[08:45:58] <Licaon_Kter> pinkolik: you back? :)
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[08:46:30] <pinkolik> Sorry, that was an accedent
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[09:12:21] <Holger> manis: Erlang/OTP is a single piece of software. Debian splits it up for use with their binary packages, e.g. with ejabberd. Developers are supposed to just install the meta package called `erlang`. Other distros might be doing other things. Checking for distro-specific foo would be complex and error-prone.
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[09:12:55] <manis> Holger, I disagree.
[09:13:06] <Holger> 🤷🏼‍♂️
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[09:13:26] <manis> It's very common for a configure script to even check the behaviour of libc functions.
[09:13:55] <Holger> Yes, I wrote tons of such checks myself.
[09:14:02] <manis> So I don't see why checking for the presence of a module which is required to build the software is error prone?
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[09:14:22] <Holger> If we were taking about a single module I'd agree.
[09:14:48] <manis> Regarding the erlang Debian package I'm really wondering why it depends on X11.
[09:15:02] <Holger> > I have a dislike for "modern"/language-specific build systems.
Hehe you'd build everything with GNU Autotools no matter the language?
[09:15:24] <Holger> > Regarding the erlang Debian package I'm really wondering why it depends on X11.
Erlang has GUI support 🤷🏼‍♂️
[09:15:32] <manis> "everything" is a strong word, but autotools is my favourite, yes.
[09:16:34] <Licaon_Kter> manis:
> Regarding the erlang Debian package I'm really wondering why it depends on X11.
Why not install `erlang-nox`  then?
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[09:17:01] <Holger> I do use Autotools for C stuff myself, because the alternatives are meh. But it's lacking way too much knowledge to build modern Erlang applications (even though it _did_ support Erlang in the past). Let alone languages that were never supported.
[09:17:10] <manis> Ah, sorry, I hadn't noticed erlang-nox exists. I take everything back.
[09:18:12] <Holger> And I don't see the advantage in having a single piece of monster software to build everything under the moon.
[09:18:48] <manis> I agree.
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[09:19:29] <manis> In my experience it's just that many of the build systems (esp. in the functional language area) are a pain to work with.
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[09:19:45] <manis> Hello, dune *wave*.
[09:20:01] <Holger> I easily agree with that as well 🙂  Just not with Autotools being the solution.
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[09:20:21] <prefiks> trying to create new apps with let say, rust cargo and autotools will clearly show why those new build systems are there
[09:20:50] <manis> Let's not get started on the dependencies madness.
[09:21:14] <manis> What I like most about autotools is that it stays out of the "lemme manage your dependencies (badly), too" business.
[09:21:28] <Holger> I mean those tools are usually more or less fine for devs, as that's the target audience. But Autotools is indeed nicer in supporting admins. As it's old and back in the days, admins were compiling software. Today they don't.
[09:22:15] <manis> I feel like I'm sitting in between both chairs and I don't really feel supported in either chair by the modern tools.
[09:22:35] <manis> Many things are "yeah just fill in some string in this file and it'll magically work somehow, maybe".
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[09:23:58] <manis> "Hey, I don't want to link statically" never occurred to some of them.
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[09:27:48] <Holger> Sure, dynamic linking has gone out of fashion.
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[09:28:08] <manis> Luckily admins don't patch vulnerabilities anymore ;-)
[09:28:09] <Holger> IT things come and go in waves …
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[09:28:24] <manis> And sometimes they get reinvented over ...
[09:29:07] <Holger> > Luckily admins don't patch vulnerabilities anymore ;-)
You just wait for upstream providing a new Docker container. If they don't, nevermind.
[09:29:41] <manis> gotta get insurance.
[09:29:57] <manis> Oh, don't get me started on my hatred of Docker.
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[09:41:15] <manis> Does Erlang have an atomic alternative to file:write_file_info?
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[09:53:07] <badlop> in summary, right now we have:
- docs.git: contains the base Go code and all the public content
- newdocs.git: it is similar to docs.git + all the customers documentation
- an automated process that gets newdocs.git and publishes the docs website
- a script to manually copy and review content between boths repos
an alternative would be to have:
- docs.git: keep as it is now
- customerdocs.git: new small repo that only would contain the private files for customers
- an automated process that gets docs.git, copies customerdocs.git over it and publishes the docs website
[09:54:45] <Holger> manis:
> Does Erlang have an atomic alternative to file:write_file_info?
Is that supported by OSes?  At least POSIX has no such function, no?
[09:55:01] <prefiks> i would say, it sounds better, you always have just one canonical repo for your stuff instead of potentially 2 like now
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[09:59:24] <manis> Holger, hmm, probably not, but it could've been that Erlang has something built on top, because you don't really work with a POSIX interface in Erlang.
But maybe atomicity is not the biggest problem right now. Already chown(3) is non-trivial when you're running with uid > 0.
[09:59:51] <manis> I was just irritated by the large red warning message in the Erlang docs.
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[10:03:10] <Holger> manis: Ah that warning is just telling you that you might notice the call not being atomic within your Erlang library written in C/whatever.  The call _is_ atomic on the Erlang level.
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[10:06:15] <Holger> (Well plus that "multiple file servers" case, which is special as well.)
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[10:40:18] <manis> I'm primarily interested in it being atomic on file system level, so that an attacker cannot get a file descriptor prior to the file having the correct permissions.
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[10:45:04] <Holger> But then you just need the `chmod` part, no?
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[10:45:50] <manis> If the socket will be owned by the `ejabberd` user you don't really get many options with `chmod` alone.
[10:46:01] <manis> Either you have `ejabberd` only, or everybody.
[10:46:14] <Holger> Ah still the socket thing.
[10:46:33] <Holger> Next time I'll be earlier with asking what you actually want to achieve 🙂
[10:46:46] <manis> Yeah, seems to be harder than I imagined. Erlang, unfortunately, doesn't help.
[10:47:36] <Holger> Setting up the parent directory with the desired permissions won't work either?
[10:48:30] <manis> If you have a separate directory for each "group of sockets", you could `chmod(0777)` the sockets and control permissions on the directory.
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[10:48:56] <Holger> Right, that's what I had in mind.
[10:49:10] <manis> But can you expect the average ejabberd admin to set it up correctly?
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[10:49:27] <Holger> The average ejabberd admin doesn't use Unix sockets 🙂
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[10:49:42] <manis> Sounds plausible.
[10:49:44] <Holger> Are we discussing how to solve your issue or just complaining about Erlang being crap?
[10:50:00] <manis> Solving the issue as good as Erlang allows.
[10:50:47] <manis> I don't think Erlang is crap, but from what i can tell (as a non-Erlang dev) it abstracts away a bit too much.
[10:51:43] <Holger> Unix sockets are a bit of a special case tho, support is still relatively new, probably because they don't exist on Windows/whatever.
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[10:52:51] <Holger> Whenever you really need lower-level stuff you can easily write a C library.  In theory we could do that in this case as well, there just seems to be very little demand (can't remember this question from anyone else).
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[10:53:35] <manis> Does ejabberd already include C code?
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[10:53:50] <Holger> I do use Unix sockets for local communication myself, but if there's no (proper) support I'm fine with TCP on localhost and calling it a day.  People keep telling me Linux optimizes the latter do death anyway?
[10:54:07] <Holger> Yes there's quite a bit of code written in C.
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[10:54:29] <Holger> Partly wrappers around C libraries (like Expat), partly performance-critical stuff.
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[10:55:37] <manis> A quick `find ejabberd-src -name '*.c'` only finds results in `deps/`?
[10:56:03] <Holger> Yes the code is separated out into libraries.
[10:56:25] <manis> OK.
[10:56:33] <Holger> Like https://github.com/processone/xmpp/tree/master/c_src but there's various other bits and pieces.
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[10:57:38] <manis> Hmm, is it a good idea to add C code only for this small case?
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[10:59:35] <Holger> I don't think so 🙂  I'd work around the issue and wait for Erlang support (maybe add a feature wish if it doesn't exist yet?).
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[11:15:13] <Holger> Er, dumb question, how do you do that in C?  By fiddling with umask, or is there another way?
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[11:20:19] <Holger> If there's no other way, the thing that's actually missing is umask(2)?  As the umask applies to the entire OS process, it seems a bit hairy to use that even if it existed ...
[11:21:21] <manis> This is not a dumb question! umask(2) would've been my first try. it is fiddly, but you could set it, open the socket and revert it. This would however require the application to be single threaded at this stage.
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[11:21:30] <manis> This is maybe the reason Erlang doesn't have it?
[11:21:32] <Holger> I mean I guess you'd do `old_umask = umask(socket_umask); open socket; umask(old_umask)` but you'd have that little window where unexpcted things might happen if another thread creates files ...
[11:22:05] <Holger> You were quicker 🙂
[11:22:12] <Holger> Yeah maybe.
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[11:22:59] <Holger> https://github.com/msantos/perc ...
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[11:38:26] <manis> I did some looking around how other FLOSS projects do it. I would say umask is the way to go.
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[11:39:06] <manis> If we can do it in C, one could maye open the file descriptors required, fork(), set umask(), bind the file descriptors and let the child die.
[11:39:47] <manis> Also, doing it in C would allow to make use of capabilities.
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[11:43:22] <manis> How does Erlang integrate with C code? I imagine there would be some object files which Erlang loads and calls, correct?
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[11:45:57] <Holger> > If we can do it in C, one could maye open the file descriptors required, fork(), set umask(), bind the file descriptors and let the child die.
Yeah.  Sounds terrible to me though 🙂
[11:46:51] <Holger> > How does Erlang integrate with C code?
Erlang comes with a C API you use to read/write Erlang data structures and so on.  You then compile your C code into an `.so` file which is dynamically opened by the VM, yes.
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[11:58:51] <Manis> > Yeah.  Sounds terrible to me though 🙂
Yeah, not exactly beautiful. If it's just one fork at the start of the server I'd think its acceptable, though.
Let me see if I can find some better ideas in the OpenBSD corner of the web.
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[13:39:50] <manis> Hmm, there is no way to set an ACL to allow connections from a socket?
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[16:13:07] <paul> -win emilie
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[16:19:39] <Licaon_Kter> paul: lose
[16:20:25] <paul> Oupsy 😅
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[16:41:59] <kapad> i think server ACL's have to do with how the server work inside. the same model used by other server nginx, redis, ... Now if have to protect/guard a `socket` for example, no matter if this is created/used by a process, that's a part of the system actually and another part of the administration must take care of this. For now all my ejabberd's fs is `0700` except uploads, but never think of `umask` inside systemd's service !
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[16:46:25] <kapad> have also make a lot think gymnastic about redis' sockets as i used it as a kind log system by some programs, but never find a direct way of safe it's sockets, if have to submited data by more than one user. I think the only way is to use wrapper/frontend, but again you get in a loop to ckeck who submitted what, if want to ignore the internal ACL system of redis
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[16:54:16] <kapad> also, if i remember right, in modern linux systems when a process send a signal, system inform receiver for the pid send it (so can figure out user), and if i'm not wrong you can also send a small bit of data if use c or python? That's interesting
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[17:01:56] <kapad> prefiks: just for the records ..., for these timeouts and fails i had say the other day ...
was an issue of my client `psi`, more specific a wrong build of it. Have lot of gstreamer thing in /usr/local/lib that psi try to use, but was outdated in debian12. while remove and rebuild, client works just fine, fast and light.  
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[21:03:00] <Sando> Hi ejabberd friends,
a weekend cookie to follow:
I created a helm chart for ejabberd, which works in my setup. But since I read very often, that people would like to have a clustering solution for ejabberd in kubernetes but do not find good configs, etc. I expanded the chart to make it more general usable. So if anyone is interested in this room to support, help, test, improve, enhance, etc. you are very welcomed!
https://github.com/sando38/helm-ejabberd
I included some initial descriptions, but it is still a draft obviously.
Thanks and have a great day, evening, wherever you are
saarko
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