ejabberd - Tuesday, June 23, 2026

[14:16:17] <nico> > zoidberg wrote:
> nico: i think that ejabberd keeps saved all versions(but the password had to be in plain first IIRC) its like it reads the Plain password and convert into all your selected hashes.
The module states that it uses xep-0480 which involves the client in the upgrade process so the server never sees the plain password.
But it does not state that all versions are kept. Meaning that if user A now has an entry for sha1 and sha512, are both versions updated so that the older client can still connect. Or is the password hash replaced so that the older client is now not able to connect.
[14:17:07] <prefiks> it will keep old hash

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[14:17:59] <nico> So backwards compatability is kept. the old client can update the sha1 entry and then the newer client updates the newer one?

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[14:18:03] <prefiks> hashes will be also updated when user changes password
[14:18:48] <prefiks> yes it should work
[14:19:00] <nico> But that depends on the client right? Because the server can not update the newer hashes by itself

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[14:20:12] <prefiks> no, we can't generate hash in different format if we have hash only, plain password is required to do that

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[14:22:11] <nico> Then it might be nice to add that requirement to the module documentation. Because it isn't obvious. Because XEP 480 does not state the requirement for plain password storage

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[14:22:30] <nico> Then it might be nice to add that requirement to the module documentation. Because it isn't obvious. And XEP 480 does not state the requirement for plain password storage
[14:22:36] <prefiks> no you don't need to have plain password stored for this
[14:22:37] <nico> Then it might be nice to add that requirement to the module documentation. Because it isn't obvious. And XEP 480 does not state the requirement for plain password storage either

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[14:23:21] <nico> ahh ok so you mean plain is required so that the server could do the conversion. And only that part needs plain storage.
[14:23:26] <prefiks> if client support xep 480, it can upload hash in different format, but server if it only keeps hashes, can't generate them on itself

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[14:24:50] <prefiks> but server it receives hash in different format using that xep from client, will hen be able accept auth in this new format
[14:25:19] <nico> ok so that means if client a can do sha1 and sha256 but not sha512 it will create an maintain those two entries.
What happens if for some reason there is client that only support sha1 and sha512 what happens to the sha256 that is now stale?

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[14:27:03] <prefiks> nothing, if that format was stored by server, it will be still stored, if not it still will not be there. this xep allows to add new password format, not to modify existing one

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[14:27:51] <prefiks> if you want to change password, you need to pass plain format to server, and then server will regenerate stored password based on this

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[14:30:07] <nico> so if a user initiates the upgrade the server adds the new hash version and on a password reset it just generates all registered version for that user based on the plain text password submission ?

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[14:32:08] <prefiks> yes, with one modification on password reset it will replace all stored password with types that are specified in auth_stored_password_types option

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[14:34:08] <nico> ok so that means it is completely safe to add mod_scram_upgrade just like in the example without any risk besides additional load due to the server now having to generate 3 hashes instead of one

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[14:34:42] <prefiks> yeah

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[14:35:55] <nico> I have to confess I did not look at xep 0077 inband registration. I though that password changes are not in plain text only encrypted by TLS...
[14:36:28] <prefiks> they are encrypted by tls, but you still pass plain password to server
[14:36:58] <prefiks> well traffic to server is encrypted by tls

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[14:39:32] <StepForward> > i am working on stream managemnt for s2s
Manual approving of self-signed certs by hash like on Prosody would be a welcome.

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[14:40:50] <Holger> I'm not sure there's a huge demand for such a feature.

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[14:44:33] <StepForward> Because it is absent - it could be that people simply moved to an another solution before asking.

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[14:47:20] <prefiks> how that's work in prosody, accept self signed cert matching hashes?

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[14:48:38] <StepForward> > how that's work in prosody, accept self signed cert matching hashes?
https://modules.prosody.im/mod_s2s_auth_fingerprint

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[14:51:41] <StepForward> Additionally it would be welcome if it were not only by DNS but IPs as well.

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[14:51:45] <prefiks> that doesn't looks like it's for self signed certs approval, this seems to be additional requirement on top of normal certs check

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[14:53:29] <StepForward> This was answered by MattJ to me:
Tue 13 Jan 2026 03:57:56 AM - MattJ: If the fingerprint matches, it doesn't need to do dialback because the connection is already authenticated by that. If it doesn't match, it will try dialback if that's the last option you have enabled.
[14:54:10] <StepForward> Tue 13 Jan 2026 03:57:08 AM - MattJ: Prosody will use any method it can to authenticate remote domains, preferring stronger methods (such as TLS)

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[14:56:39] <prefiks> hm, with sha1 collisions being a thing i am not sure if thats a good idea

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[14:57:07] <StepForward> there are sha256 and sha512 options in the module.

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[15:59:03] <Holger> My point would be that yet another code path/docs/tests complexity in a security-relevant area doesn't come without cost.

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[15:59:35] <Holger> But it's not the end of the world and I have no say anyway 🙂

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[16:02:10] <StepForward> I see s2s cert's fingerprinting as an easy solution in case Let's Encrypt is malfunctioned, broken, blocked.
India has recently blocked Telegram and it is 1.5b people here.

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[16:02:37] <prefiks> i could see cert pining being a think like it is in browsers (where it's used as extra protections, for someone being able to issue valid but rogue cert), but as relaxing security and using it as replacement for dialback...

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[16:05:34] <prefiks> but even that is probably not that usefull in xmpp, in browsers pinned certs are updated with browser, but on xmpp you will have to do that yourself? that's just will not work in practice

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[16:09:40] <Holger> Yes, (re)enabling Dialback seems way easier, more robust and presumably at least as secure as having the admins of 1,5b people gather SHA sums of certs of their peer servers on CA malfunction. That _is_ our fallback.

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[16:13:58] <dwd> There's also the magic in XEP-0344 which makes dialback a lot stronger.

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[16:29:14] <StepForward> How would you know with dialback that s2s connection/destination to the other server is correct?

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[16:29:46] <prefiks> we trust what's dns reports

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[16:31:54] <StepForward> If dns points to fake or wrong server.

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[16:32:44] <prefiks> well if you can control dns address, you can also issue cert for domain using lets encrypt...

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[16:33:59] <StepForward> I mean third party controls it, not me.

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[16:34:26] <zoidberg> If third party controls they can issue a valid certificate...
[16:34:26] <prefiks> yeah, then that third party can also issue cert for your domain, and that's it

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[16:39:34] <StepForward> Then at least a browser will mark it as wrong because of different fingerprint with self-signed cert.

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[16:43:32] <Holger> > yeah, then that third party can also issue cert for your domain, and that's it
Which is precisely what happened to jabber.ru, BTW.

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[16:47:56] <Holger> StepForward: CA-based cert auth can protect against specific attack vectors Dialback doesn't protect against. But the trade-off is just less obvious to me when admins start maintaining hashes manually.

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[16:57:16] <StepForward> > > yeah, then that third party can also issue cert for your domain, and that's it
>
> Which is precisely what happened to jabber.ru, BTW.
Have read about this story - for 6 months wrong certs were considered good. Any s2s node using manual fingerprint pin would know about it in the first connection attempt.

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[16:58:31] <prefiks> but who gonna keep those certs hashes updated, when certs change about once per month?

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[16:59:11] <prefiks> in browsers where certs pinning is a thing, you get those updated by browser auto update, but on xmpp server?
[16:59:21] <StepForward> Why there is need to change them every month? Are they already post-quantum resistant?

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[17:00:41] <prefiks> lets encrypt certs expire each 90 days (and soon 45 days and there are plans to make that even shorter), normal update process for acme renew cert each 30 days

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[17:01:03] <svp> blame google just in case
[17:01:24] <StepForward> You can do for self-signed cert whatever duration you want like 1 year or more.

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[17:05:11] <StepForward> Even 10 years possible.

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[17:08:48] <prefiks> yes, but then you have self signed cert, which will not work out of the box in browser, or on mobile

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[17:10:27] <StepForward> You just need approve a self-signed cert one time and that is. Whenever the self-signed cert is changed a browser will notify you.

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[17:11:27] <zoidberg> But StepForward dont current ejabberd servers allow for such config?

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[17:11:45] <zoidberg> Pretty sure there is a setting to accept self signed certs...

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[17:12:24] <StepForward> > But StepForward dont current ejabberd servers allow for such config?
There is no as far as i know with fingerprinting.

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[17:13:27] <zoidberg> ah you want the fingerprint stuff got it. And these are unfakable?
[17:13:28] <prefiks> for self signed cert we will force dialback (aka connect to server on ip address matching from it's domain dns, and see if both use same cert)

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[17:16:41] <Holger> StepForward: My point is not about whether you're right or wrong that manual maintenance of potentially thousands of hashes is a good idea. My point is just that my impression is that the demand for that use case is very small.
[17:17:23] <Holger> You keep missing that point by explaining why you like that concept. I think I understood that part.

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[17:19:50] <StepForward> > StepForward: My point is not about whether you're right or wrong that manual maintenance of potentially thousands of hashes is a good idea. My point is just that my impression is that the demand for that use case is very small.
Why thousands? Some by Let's encrypt, some by additional fingerprinting.
Additionally s2s could be for small networks.

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[17:20:09] <zoidberg> I mean idk how thinks work under the hood, but if i have the power to control DNS, cant i try connection with your server check what fingerprint you say you have and then also present the same fingerprint?

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[17:27:41] <StepForward> Thinking it would need double work - redirect DNS and having the self-signed cert.

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[17:28:04] <dwd> Holger, Pinning on first use might work. Especially if you pin the trust anchor rather than the EE cert.

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[18:55:38] <Holger> True, but I mean at some point some peer will create a new key …

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[18:56:54] <Holger> I just don't see how that's supposed to work out in practice except for a smallish closed set of peers.

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[19:10:54] <marko.cupac> Hm

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[19:11:17] <marko.cupac> Been offline, had to rejoin.

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[19:11:55] <marko.cupac> Same for eturnal muc

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[19:45:46] <PatRiot> Get notifications transported over Apple's servers if using Monal or Siskin? So they 'could' read everything?
Which client on iOS is to prefer?

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[19:52:01] <ffunk> PatRiot: With Monal pushes just wake the app to fetch new messages (if the server is configured properly).
Monal is the most reliable client on iOS afaik.

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[20:03:01] <Licaon_Kter> PatRiot: same with Siskin, Snikket. The only thing Apple sees is "New message" literally

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[20:14:07] <PatRiot> > PatRiot: With Monal pushes just wake the app to fetch new messages (if the server is configured properly).
> Monal is the most reliable client on iOS afaik.
❤️

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[20:16:12] <PatRiot> Licaon_Kter: but only if client sets up to get no message content? If server allows it, I still can prevent it with correct client's settings? I don't care for the sender's name but for the message itself and its content

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[20:17:43] <Licaon_Kter> That's the XEP rule, the protocol. Yes, clients can be broken, have bugs, etc, if they send message contents in push, report the issue, change the client.

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[20:55:09] <PatRiot> Ok, but can I prevent the issue, even if the server allows to get message content through notifications, by deactivating it in each client?

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[21:09:53] <Licaon_Kter> No, good clients have no such option anyway,

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[21:23:01] <PatRiot> Why are those clients not good if they have such option?

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